Balanced & Unbalanced Outputs (audio)

lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
That might not be true...if your going to run speaker wire that long you might want shield speaker cable. also 35 feet or 11+ meters might add some inductance and resistence. the 12 gauge should be pretty good for most circumstances but I think some in wall cable is shielded. check it out first before you buy long lengths of cable first.
Just no.
 
HTfreak2004

HTfreak2004

Senior Audioholic
14-4 cable should be all you need.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
G

gzubeck

Audioholic
I said he should check into it. He didnt say whether he was running it on ground or what? usually when running long distances a person might be running it in the attic or inwall etc. we dont know.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I said he should check into it. He didnt say whether he was running it on ground or what? usually when running long distances a person might be running it in the attic or inwall etc. we dont know.
You're talking about shielding like in a coax cable or sheathing for an in-wall application?
 
Speedskater

Speedskater

Audioholic General
Not are amplifiers are immune to RFI sneaking in the speaker wires then through the amp's feedback loop to the input. Twisting the speaker wires is good, but not all amplifiers are happy with shielded speaker cables.
 
G

gzubeck

Audioholic
That's not shielding, just twisting....
Look, unless your some kind of electrical engineer disputing the value of this then maybe you can tell all the cable manufacturers that theyre wasting their time. its a form of shielding different than coaxial cables.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Look, unless your some kind of electrical engineer disputing the value of this then maybe you can tell all the cable manufacturers that theyre wasting their time. its a form of shielding different than coaxial cables.
Maybe you should instead learn the language. I'm not an EE. Most audiophool speaker wires are gimmicks or simply overpriced. I've used standard speaker wire for years, never been an issue for me in various homes with long lengths of speaker cable and nearby tv/radio towers or a variety of ac power cords. YMMV of course. Have you had the experience of a speaker wire picking up such interference and you solved it with some silly Kimber Kable or something?
 
G

gzubeck

Audioholic
Maybe you should instead learn the language. I'm not an EE. Most audiophool speaker wires are gimmicks or simply overpriced. I've used standard speaker wire for years, never been an issue for me in various homes with long lengths of speaker cable and nearby tv/radio towers or a variety of ac power cords. YMMV of course. Have you had the experience of a speaker wire picking up such interference and you solved it with some silly Kimber Kable or something?
this is not kimber cable its just parts express high quality in wall twisted and jacketed speaker wire. the longer runs can have problems especially when theyre close to power wires in the wall etc. Im using .97 cents a foot 10 gauge outdoor lighting power cabling from home depot for my speaker cabling. tried it out and it works well.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
this is not kimber cable its just parts express high quality in wall twisted and jacketed speaker wire. the longer runs can have problems especially when theyre close to power wires in the wall etc. Im using .97 cents a foot 10 gauge outdoor lighting power cabling from home depot for my speaker cabling. tried it out and it works well.
So you have no experience with twisted wire making any difference? Of course 10g wire would be sufficient for speaker wire but paying a buck a foot for something that really has no benefit in either gauge or construction (unless your speaker wire is an outdoor run I suppose). How long is your wire run?
 
G

gzubeck

Audioholic
So you have no experience with twisted wire making any difference? Of course 10g wire would be sufficient for speaker wire but paying a buck a foot for something that really has no benefit in either gauge or construction (unless your speaker wire is an outdoor run I suppose). How long is your wire run?
10 feet per side.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
See what I mean?


ps apologies to the OP for the diversion....back to your regularly scheduled programming, I'm outta here
lovinthehd:
I quite this several days ago. This started out as a decent and straight up question.
I did not know the answer, although I have plugged in enough home audio equipment to know what the 99% does.
But this thread turn a bad turn back around "you can ruin your sound with good cables".
I only peeked in to see why you were still thrashing around.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
This is incorrect!
Neil Muncy first wrote about the problem in 1994/95 (see links), but the problem persisted a decade later even after the standard AES48 (2005) was written. In audiophile equipment the problem remained after two decades!

Pin 1 Revisited Neil Muncy called our attention to the Pin 1 problem (the improper termination of the shield of audio wiring to the circuit board rather than to the shielding enclosure) in his classic 1994 paper, reprinted in the June 1995 Journal of the AES. When he wrote his paper, most commercially available audio gear had pin 1 problems. It was, indeed, difficult to find equipment without it -- even the most prestigeous consoles had serious pin 1 problems! Over the next decade, the better manufacturers redesigned their products to correct their mistake, but sadly, many have not done so.
http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/Pin_1_Revisited.pdf
http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/Pin_1_Revisited_Part_2.pdf


The only reason that the shell is not connected to pin #1 AES54, is because the shell can come in contact with metal that is not at shield potential in portable cables. From an interference point of view it's better to connect the shell.
So, this problem only existed after Munsy wrote about it? BS! '94/'95 is only a little over 20 years ago and XLR have been used for much longer (since 1955), often called a 'Cannon connector', after its inventor. I worked at a music store from about '73-'78 and we saw/heard problems with connections using XLR many times, but it was mainly due to people making/repairing cables and swapping pins 1 and 3. XLR were also used for speaker connections, to prevent the plug pulling out.

WRT your last comment, this link from Rane is something that's common, but goes against the recommendation to make the connection from the shell to the shield- what's good in the AF range can be bad in the RF range.

http://www.rane.com/note165.html
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
It's pretty straightforward. A balanced connection has three distinct and separate conductors; one signal negative, one signal positive (normally referred to as "hot") and one that is used for chassis ground and/or signal shield.

In contrast to an unbalanced connection where the signal negative and the chassis ground are both sent on the same conductor. In some cases the chassis ground connection is unused, in others the signal shield and chassis ground and the signal negative all reside on the same connector. Regardless, you have two connectors and three potential "users".

Separating the signal negative and the shield/ground connection offers a number of advantages. Although it will increase cable capacitance, you can have a shield connection that protects the signal carrying wires from magnetic and radio frequency interference. It's relatively easy to insure the capacitance effect is equal on both the signal negative and signal positive connections.

Impedance matching is often easier with a balanced configuration, and in many cases the signal operates at the "Professional" 600 ohms standard. This allows for very long cable runs without significant signal degradation in comparison to an unbalanced cable. Even with conventional Home Audio impedances, longer cable runs are possible. Broadly speaking a balanced line of 100 feet is capable of the same signal quality as an unbalanced line of 10 feet in length.

It's possible to reduce noise with a balanced connection, as some noise will cancel out (any noise that is present on both the negative and positive signal wires and in opposite polarity), depending on exactly the nature of the noise and the configuration of the cable. A more robust shielding opportunity also exists, which may prevent noise from entering the system in the first place.

Downside is increased cost of cable, in some cases connectors, and added complexity in the equipment itself. Some method must be used to accommodate the balanced configuration. It's possible to use what is called a Pseudo-Balanced connection, where you simply make a cable that adapts the balanced cable to an unbalanced input on the electronics.

Alternately you may preserve the true balanced configuration; this may be relatively simple (using a THAT 1200 circuit interface; THAT is a company created by former DBX engineers and they offer an IC to interface balanced inputs and outputs), it can be done by transformers (which increases cost) or the entire circuit may be balanced with separate electronics operating on the negative and positive legs of the circuit (now we are essentially doubling the cost of the circuit).
 
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