2 channel receiver with good bass management.

[panteragstk]

Hey guys. Looking for a 2 channel receiver with good bass management (title says it all...) and I'm not really finding much in the way of information on that specific aspect of the receivers I've looked at.

Basically I'm currently using a Pioneer 521K in my main living room and it is laughably horrendous at bass management. I'm having to use the speaker level inputs then route the wires back to the speakers. Not optimal and pretty ugly.

I'll be building a new sub next week and will be placing it further away from the receiver so speaker level isn't an option.

I'm currently looking at the Yamaha models and my only requirement is an optical input as the TV will be passing all audio from the HDMI sources through it's optical port. Simple enough.

I'm not tied to any brand, but when I build my new speakers (speedsters) I want something pretty transparent as those are supposed to be very good, but don't dig all that deep. Hence the need for bass management.

So, what do you guys use for simple 2 channel rigs?

 

[lovinthehd]

I would use an avr. Most of the 2ch stuff lacks bass management. Maybe look at the Outlaw RR2150.

 

[panteragstk]

I would use an avr. Most of the 2ch stuff lacks bass management. Maybe look at the Outlaw RR2150.

I thought of that too, but since I'm using an AVR now and actually have a decent one for my theater that still doesn't really have great bass management I thought a 2ch unit would work better since that is it's only job.

That and the fact that the regular AVRs I've seen that get good reviews for bass management are typically pretty expensive and have a lot of features that I simply won't use. I'm not opposed to it, I just don't want to have to go to the top of the line to get something that should be a simple feature, but for whatever reason isn't.

If I can find an AVR that has bass redirection in pure direct or direct would be perfect. I just haven't found one that does it yet.

 

[lovinthehd]

I thought of that too, but since I'm using an AVR now and actually have a decent one for my theater that still doesn't really have great bass management I thought a 2ch unit would work better since that is it's only job.

That and the fact that the regular AVRs I've seen that get good reviews for bass management are typically pretty expensive and have a lot of features that I simply won't use. I'm not opposed to it, I just don't want to have to go to the top of the line to get something that should be a simple feature, but for whatever reason isn't.

If I can find an AVR that has bass redirection in pure direct or direct would be perfect. I just haven't found one that does it yet.

If it is pure direct then bass management would make it indirect or unpure for 2ch stuff . I have three avrs currently, one has no pure/pure direct mode, the other two do not utilize the sub in either direct/pure direct modes. Is that all you're looking for, use of the sub in these modes? I think I can setup my Denon to use the sub in direct but I'd have to review the manual, just no interest in doing that, I simply use stereo mode.

 

[panteragstk]

Direct with bass redirection is the specific feature. You are right, wouldn't be pure if it redirected. I think Denon has this feature, but I'm going to check some of the lower end models to see if it is specifically mentioned.

 

[lovinthehd]

Why not simply use the stereo mode?

 

[panteragstk]

Why not simply use the stereo mode?

Depending on the receiver I either get nothing from the sub (even when front speakers are set to small) or the crossover settings on my pioneer aren't very accurate and nothing sounds right. It sounds fine when I use the manual crossover on the sub with speaker level inputs.

I checked the manual for the Denon AVR-X1300W and it has the LFE+Main function (so does my pioneer, sort of) and that is the same setting my Onkyo has. It does work well, but sometimes too much bass is added when that is turned on and front are set to "large". I think I'll have to test my Onkyo in pace of the pioneer to see how that setting acts. Should give me an idea of how another receiver with the same setting will sound.

I would just buy another receiver for the theater and use my Onkyo, but it is too tall for the opening in my TV cabinet.

 

[lovinthehd]

I had a Pioneer 919 a while back but it died, think it had some sort of double bass feature but never used it, I don't use my speakers set to large on any of my setups. I think my Denon has something aside from the LFE+Main for use of a sub with direct mode but its been a while since reviewing the manual. My Onkyo I think has the LFE+Main thing, too.

Sounds like a small compartment for a receiver....might want to think about a fan with today's units.

 

[panteragstk]

Not really, my Onkyo is just taller than most units for some reason. The compartment is large and well ventilated, it just is about an inch too short for the Onkyo.

Onkyo is almost 8" tall. Pioneer is a little over 6.5" tall. Same height as a Denon x6300.

 

[lovinthehd]

Not really, my Onkyo is just taller than most units for some reason. The compartment is large and well ventilated, it just is about an inch too short for the Onkyo.

Onkyo is almost 8" tall. Pioneer is a little over 6.5" tall. Same height as a Denon x6300.

Yeah my Denon is 7.7, my Onkyo 7. Ventilated where heat won't accumulate on the unit? I have added a fan to my open shelf style rack for insurance as the space between shelves is just a bit taller than the avrs in each case....keep meaning to build something better but haven't decided on design/materials yet.

 

[vsound5150]

I checked the manual for the Denon AVR-X1300W and it has the LFE+Main function (so does my pioneer, sort of) and that is the same setting my Onkyo has. It does work well, but sometimes too much bass is added when that is turned on and front are set to "large". I think I'll have to test my Onkyo in pace of the pioneer to see how that setting acts. Should give me an idea of how another receiver with the same setting will sound.

My last Onkyo had a setting called Phase Matching Bass it was hidden in the same place where you control Treble and Bass settings. It actually sounded good but sometimes it overpowered the bass depending on the signal coming through.

My Marantz doesn't seem to care the subs are out there and just lets the subs do its thing. Sounds awesome but I think because the sub channels are discrete and separated from each other, not sure.

 

[lovinthehd]

My last Onkyo had a setting called Phase Matching Bass it was hidden in the same place where you control Treble and Bass settings. It actually sounded good but sometimes it overpowered the bass depending on the signal coming through.

My Marantz doesn't seem to care the subs are out there and just lets the subs do its thing. Sounds awesome but I think because the sub channels are discrete and separated from each other, not sure.

Onkyos since they took out Audyssey have that phase matching feature but haven't tried one, have read some fairly positive comments from those who like to use it.

FWIW the Marantz doesn't have two discrete sub channels, there's no content for such either (i.e. a movie/music recorded with a pair of LFE channels) but it may have the ability to set delay/level separately before they're eq'd together (assuming your Marantz has XT32 and SubEQ).

 

[vsound5150]

FWIW the Marantz doesn't have two discrete sub channels, there's no content for such either (i.e. a movie/music recorded with a pair of LFE channels) but it may have the ability to set delay/level separately before they're eq'd together (assuming your Marantz has XT32 and SubEQ).

I think I'm confused when they use the word discrete I assumed it's separate channels. Or maybe for subs it is separate but the signal hits both the same time and treat it as one?

The other part I don't get on the Marantz is there's two places you can manually adjust dB levels for the subs but it does the same thing. Not sure why they have duplicate places to adjust the same settings. Also the manual says you can adjust the delay but I can't find the settings I let Audyssey do it.

Audio
Subwoofer Level Adjust On/Off
Subwoofer 1 level +1.0 dB
Subwoofer 2 level +1.0 dB

Speakers
Audyssey Setup

Manual Setup
> Levels > Test Tone Start
Front L +1.0 dB
Center +1.0 dB
Front R +1.0 dB
Surround R +1.0 dB
Surround L +1.0 dB
Subwoofer 1 +1.0 dB
Subwoofer 2 +1.0 dB
Subwoofer 1+2 Down/Up (this setting just adjusts both dB levels the same time)

This is from the manual
Discrete subwoofers and Audyssey Sub EQ HT™
The unit has two subwoofer output capability and can adjust the level
and delay for each subwoofer individually.
Audyssey Sub EQ HT™ makes the integration seamless by first
compensating for any level and delay differences between the two
subwoofers and then applying Audyssey MultEQ® XT32 to both
subwoofers together for improved deep bass response and detail.

 

[lovinthehd]

I think I'm confused when they use the word discrete I assumed it's separate channels. Or maybe for subs it is separate but the signal hits both the same time and treat it as one?

The other part I don't get on the Marantz is there's two places you can manually adjust dB levels for the subs but it does the same thing. Not sure why they have duplicate places to adjust the same settings. Also the manual says you can adjust the delay but I can't find the settings I let Audyssey do it.

Audio
Subwoofer Level Adjust On/Off
Subwoofer 1 level +1.0 dB
Subwoofer 2 level +1.0 dB

Speakers
Audyssey Setup

Manual Setup
> Levels > Test Tone Start
Front L +1.0 dB
Center +1.0 dB
Front R +1.0 dB
Surround R +1.0 dB
Surround L +1.0 dB
Subwoofer 1 +1.0 dB
Subwoofer 2 +1.0 dB
Subwoofer 1+2 Down/Up (this setting just adjusts both dB levels the same time)

This is from the manual
Discrete subwoofers and Audyssey Sub EQ HT™
The unit has two subwoofer output capability and can adjust the level
and delay for each subwoofer individually.
Audyssey Sub EQ HT™ makes the integration seamless by first
compensating for any level and delay differences between the two
subwoofers and then applying Audyssey MultEQ® XT32 to both
subwoofers together for improved deep bass response and detail.

Yes, it has dual subwoofer output with an ability to adjust delay and level for two subs and then eq's them together afterwards. It's not discrete as in say a Left or Right channel nor is there a source with two discrete LFE channels.

Some prefer extra menu options for sub level, maybe via a quick menu button on a remote or a simplified menu excluding every speaker level, etc. for convenience I suppose. Sometimes a quick menu selection is just for what you're currently watching, like on my Onkyo, and then reverts to the calibrated level (or master level if you made adjustments in the main speaker level menu).

You realize distance is a way to express delay? People are more comfortable with translation into feet than deal in milliseconds

 

[vsound5150]

Cool learn something everyday. I was not aware of using distance for delay you just gave me a "duh" moment totally makes sense now. As far as adjusting sub levels I don't really use the AVR settings unless I'm lowering levels down from Audyssey. I let the subs internal amps take on more of the load and I'll manually up the volume dial on the back of the subs for music sometimes.

 

[lovinthehd]

Cool learn something everyday. I was not aware of using distance for delay you just gave me a "duh" moment totally makes sense now. As far as adjusting sub levels I don't really use the AVR settings unless I'm lowering levels down from Audyssey. I let the subs internal amps take on more of the load and I'll manually up the volume dial on the back of the subs for music sometimes.

Stuff can be complicated Keep in mind that distance in the case of a subwoofer isn't necessarily the physical distance; may need to make adjustments for the processing time of the sub's amp and perhaps for phase issues.

Many of us don't touch the gain on the sub's amp once calibrated; the adjustment in the avr is in known units of measurement (dB generally) and is highly repeatable, whereas the gain dials/adjustments on almost all subs aren't. You aren't saving your subs's amps anything by the way you're dealing with the gain dial.

FWIW I generally raise sub level post-Audyssey myself, but always thru the avr with my remote at the place that counts, my seat.

 

[vsound5150]

FWIW I generally raise sub level post-Audyssey myself, but always thru the avr with my remote at the place that counts, my seat.

Ok I need to get clear on this. When you raise the sub level on the AVR are you not driving more power thru the AVR amps for the subs? Or are the AVR amps only for mains, center, surrounds?

 

[lovinthehd]

Ok I need to get clear on this. When you raise the sub level on the AVR are you not driving more power thru the AVR amps for the subs? Or are the AVR amps only for mains, center, surrounds?

Op-amps maybe, the avr is handling the signal pre-amplifier section (that's why they're called pre-outs) at a relatively low voltage; depending on the sensitivity of the sub's amp and the avr's pre-out voltage output level you adjust gain accordingly. The avr's amps have speaker terminals (and are for mains and surrounds as you note) as most modern avr's only have a pre-out for a sub channel (some HTIBs still have an onboard amp for the sub)

ps If interested in more on gain structure, member Wayne Pflughaupt has an extensive post on the subject over at HTS

 

[vsound5150]

Thanks lovinthehd for the explanation it makes sense now when I look at it as speaker level outputs vs pre-amp level. Thanks for the link too I'll check it out I'm considering buying a 2-channel amp to drive the front mains. I'll kindly bow out now for the OP's original question, thx.

 

[panteragstk]

In doing some more research I've found that the upper level Denon receivers have what I was looking for...except that I don't need it for a 2ch rig.

They have a separate 2ch mode that allows the sub to be set to a different mode than for multi-channel duty. You can have the LFE+Main setting ONLY for 2ch listening. That is exactly what I'm needing for my theater so that decision is made. The reason I didn't like that setting on my Onkyo is because it was universal. It was great for 2ch, but was too much for multi-channel where there was already an LFE track.

Very interesting. I'm going to play with my current pioneer and see if I can get it to work properly. If not, I'll probably invest in a moderately priced receiver to replace it since they all seem to have the same sort of settings. I'm partial to Denon/Marantz so that'll probably be the route I take.

Thanks for the help.