Impressed with my new Sierra Towers, Audyssey apparently is not

[rom3]

I was looking to improve my setup especially the mid-bass / midrange dynamics that I was disappointed in with my current setup (see thread here) and decided to take a chance and order a pair of the Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers with the RAAL ribbon tweeter upgrade. I am a happy camper now! The dynamics in the mid-bass and midrange as well as the detail & clarity in the midrange are in another league compared to my NHT Absolute Towers. Even crossed over at 60 Hz I am getting that punch in the chest I was looking for. Realism is much improved, feels like the players are sitting right in front of me. I've only had a few hours to listen, but so far the highs don't seem any better than the NHT's. Maybe I didn't need to pay for those RAAL tweeters? Will give them a lot more listening time to make that determination.

When I ran Audyssey (XT32, Denon X4100) and checked the resulting EQ curve, I was surprised at the extreme corrections made to almost the entire frequency range on the Sierra Towers. The NHT's have relatively little correction made by Audyssey (I do have a big issue on the right channel around 80-100 Hz that needs to be tamed). Both sets of speakers were placed in the same position in the room, same equipment otherwise. For now, I'm running L/R Bypass on Audyssey with xover at 100Hz to let the sub EQ handle the room mode issue I've got around 80-100. It would be a shame not to let the Ascends play down to a least 80 Hz if not 60 Hz. I've got limited placement options for the speakers but will try what I can.

Here are links to pictures of the TV displaying the Audyssey flat curves for the speakers (sorry about the fuzzy pictures).

NHT Absolute Tower

Ascend Sierra Tower
Look at the hatchet job Audyssey did on the Sierra Towers! Yikes!

 

[lovinthehd]

Those graphs you can see post-Audyssey are basically crap, don't mean much as they're not accurate; I wouldn't come to conclusions based on those graphs.

Glad you like the Sierra Towers, would like to try those. My Sierra-1s I had both basic tweeter as well as their NrT version, both are excellent IMO so even if you didn't go Raal I think you might be satisfied.

Not sure I understand your thought process on L/R bypass mode for sub eq, sub eq should remain the same whether you're in Audyssey/Audyssey Flat/Bypass L/R. All Bypass L/R does is not eq the L/R speakers. http://denon.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/35/~/audyssey-multeq-and-multeq-xt-modes

 

[TLS Guy]

Audyssey generally makes good speakers sound awful. You can not Eq a bad speaker anyway, so there is no point. Only very bad rooms should be equalized in the bottom end. The less Eq you use the better.

I have never used system Eq on any of my systems. If you ever feel the need more likely than not you have a speaker problem and NOT a room problem, cubic rooms excepted. I have found these issues are usually solved by changing something that is not quite right in my speaker design.

I used to make a lot of live recordings and had speakers in a wide variety of environments and they sounded universally excellent.

The whole concept behind these auto Eq systems is in my view fundamentally flawed. I'm not alone in that view. Billy Woodman of ATC is constantly dissing that approach.

I have experimented with Audyssey and they always make my speakers sound worse, in fact unlistenable.

Bottom line is that Auto Eq is to be avoided always.

So many of these bass problems stem from speakers and subs having too high a Q.

 

[rom3]

Thanks, lovinthehd. Yeah, I know the graphs are only crude representations of the actual corrections but am surprised at the results nun the less. Lots of +5dB to +7 even +10 corrections. Almost like the smiley face eq curve with only slightly or no corrections in the 500 - 2000 Hz range.

I want sub EQ engaged as I know I've got issues in the sub 100 Hz range based on REW. That's why I'm using L/R bypass. Figure leave the towers uncorrected, but correct the low bass from the subs (2× SVS SB-2000).

 

[rom3]

Audyssey generally makes good speakers sound awful. You can not Eq a bad speaker anyway, so there is no point. Only very bad rooms should be equalized in the bottom end. The less Eq you use the better.

I have never used system Eq on any of my systems. If you ever feel the need more likely than not you have a speaker problem and NOT a room problem, cubic rooms excepted. I have found these issues are usually solved by changing something that is not quite right in my speaker design.

I used to make a lot of live recordings and had speakers in a wide variety of environments and they sounded universally excellent.

The whole concept behind these auto Eq systems is in my view fundamentally flawed. I'm not alone in that view. Billy Woodman of ATC is constantly dissing that approach.

I have experimented with Audyssey and they always make my speakers sound worse, in fact unlistenable.

Bottom line is that Auto Eq is to be avoided always.

So many of these bass problems stem from speakers and subs having too high a Q.

I wish Audyssey (or other) would have an option to only correct something like 300 Hz and below. That's basically what I'm trying to accomplish by using Audyssey L/R bypass, but of course, my subs are playing anything below the xover frequency. Would like to have the towers play down to 60 or 80 Hz but have them eq'd up to 300 Hz or so to handle room modes/nulls.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks, lovinthehd. Yeah, I know the graphs are only crude representations of the actual corrections but am surprised at the results nun the less. Lots of +5dB to +7 even +10 corrections. Almost like the smiley face eq curve with only slightly or no corrections in the 500 - 2000 Hz range.

I want sub EQ engaged as I know I've got issues in the sub 100 Hz range based on REW. That's why I'm using L/R bypass. Figure leave the towers uncorrected, but correct the low bass from the subs (2× SVS SB-2000).

My understanding is that they're less than crude, just simply unusable for any kind of analysis (and intentionally it seems to keep things on the secretive side, just as you can't get any other post Audyssey details other than your own measurements).

Not sure your bypass l/r approach is doing much, is it audibly obvious?

 

[lovinthehd]

Audyssey generally makes good speakers sound awful. You can not Eq a bad speaker anyway, so there is no point. Only very bad rooms should be equalized in the bottom end. The less Eq you use the better.

I have never used system Eq on any of my systems. If you ever feel the need more likely than not you have a speaker problem and NOT a room problem, cubic rooms excepted. I have found these issues are usually solved by changing something that is not quite right in my speaker design.

I used to make a lot of live recordings and had speakers in a wide variety of environments and they sounded universally excellent.

The whole concept behind these auto Eq systems is in my view fundamentally flawed. I'm not alone in that view. Billy Woodman of ATC is constantly dissing that approach.

I have experimented with Audyssey and they always make my speakers sound worse, in fact unlistenable.

Bottom line is that Auto Eq is to be avoided always.

So many of these bass problems stem from speakers and subs having too high a Q.

What Audyssey enabled units have you used and how? I've had good results but then you didn't make my speakers or record my music (did you?).

 

[lovinthehd]

I wish Audyssey (or other) would have an option to only correct something like 300 Hz and below. That's basically what I'm trying to accomplish by using Audyssey L/R bypass, but of course, my subs are playing anything below the xover frequency. Would like to have the towers play down to 60 or 80 Hz but have them eq'd up to 300 Hz or so to handle room modes/nulls.

Well supposedly the new Denon (x)300 series can utilize the almost released Audyssey app for user control/saving/tweaking of Audyssey curves applied.

 

[rom3]

...Not sure your bypass l/r approach is doing much, is it audibly obvious?

Yes, it is definitely noticeable with L/R bypass. If my room problem is in the 80 - 100 Hz range, and I've got the xover set to 100 Hz, the subs should also be corrected by Audyssey for that range. With no Audyssey I've got "one note bass" issues. With Audyssey engaged (including L/R bypass) the bass is tamed and enjoyable. Can almost imagine a bass guitar string vibrating back and forth instead of just hearing a sound in that frequency range.

 

[rom3]

Well supposedly the new Denon (x)300 series can utilize the almost released Audyssey app for user control/saving/tweaking of Audyssey curves applied.

Yes, I've been following the 2016 Denon thread over on AVS forum and am intrigued by what the Audyssey phone app will be able to do. Hard to envision what users will be able to do. Aren't there hundreds of corrections Audyssey XT32 makes? Just the subs alone have hundreds, if I understand correctly .

 

[TLS Guy]

What Audyssey enabled units have you used and how? I've had good results but then you didn't make my speakers or record my music (did you?).

My two Marantz pre/pros. The Marantz 8003 in my main system and the 7702 at Eagan.

To be fair the only correction Audyssey makes is to try and correct the sound to flat at the listening position. This is something that should never be done. A speaker with good dispersion will have an excellent direct and reflected ambient field. The high end of the ambient field will always roll off relative to the direct filed, so the combined fields will and should roll off at the listening position. On both my units Audyssey corrects for this which it absolutely should not.

I will give audyssey full marks for leveling and distance. In addition it seems to find the crossover points to the design criteria, which I find surprising given the unconventional nature of my speaker systems. The most amazing to me is that it finds the correct roll off for the midbass units at 90 Hz, which is the measured and design F3, but more surprising it knows to continue the feed to the isobaric coupled cavity bass system in the speakers to 120 Hz, to provide the correct splice to the midbass units. It can construct the perfect fourth order crossover. The coupled cavity unit rolls off fourth order, so Audyssey correctly extends the drive to 120 Hz so the roll off is acoustic as it should be at 90 Hz. The bass mids are sealed and roll off second order at 90 Hz and audyssey rolls them off 12 db at 90 Hz, for an acoustic and electrical sum of fourth order 24 db at 90 Hz.

 

[rojo]

I am a happy camper now! The dynamics in the mid-bass and midrange as well as the detail & clarity in the midrange are in another league compared to my NHT Absolute Towers. Even crossed over at 60 Hz I am getting that punch in the chest I was looking for. Realism is much improved, feels like the players are sitting right in front of me.

The bit I quoted should be the salient point. The destination is more important than the journey here. Are you displeased with your sound? The curve applied by Audyssey can look like the Appalachian Mountains for all I care, as long as it sounds good.

As lovin says, the graphs don't mean much. The corrections are likely such a high q, in such narrow bands, that they're largely inaudible. But the Denon display of those graphs is so Atari 2600 that the corrections appear more profound than they actually are.

My favorite Audyssey feature I think is Dynamic EQ. Having the AVR increase the house curve at lower volumes and flatten at higher gives the impression of a consistent response at every volume level.