What does the db scale on my AVR volume control mean?

[Bucknekked]

I have read a few threads about reference level listening, db levels, and "what does it all mean?"
My question is pretty simple and is in line with my newb status.

I have a Denon AVR. I run a two channel stereo setup. When I adjust the volume control, it shows the volume in db on the front panel. In my room, I find it comfortable to listen to what my Denon AVR says is -24db. I know that if I drag out my SPL meter, i'm probably listening at 75db to 85db of sound pressure coming out of the speakers.

QUESTION: What in the wild wild world of sports is the db scale on my AVR trying to tell me? On the front panel my favorite setting is about -24db for casual listening. When I crank it up for rock n roll, I will maybe get to -10db before I sense the neighbors are opening their gun racks. There is a 0db. And I assume then there is a +db scale after that. Inquiring minds want to know : what's it trying to tell me?

Does -24db on my current Denon mean the same thing on a Yamaha or a Marantz?

I know the audio community here can enlighten a poor lost soul.

 

[lovinthehd]

0dB if you've calibrated your avr's level matches up to a movie standard...85dB average speaker levels at your seat, with allowance for 20dB peaks and the LFE channel being an additional 10dB over speaker levels...

Try this article for the scales available http://denon.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/136/~/relative-and-absolute-volume-ranges

 

[Bucknekked]

lovinthehd:
I can grasp this answer. Its a helpful one. I have not calibrated my Denon in its current configuration because it only plays 2 channel stereo and never does 5.1 or any other of the HT layouts. I think the relative scale idea still applies. My listening volume of -24 is relative to 0 as the loudest it will go, give or take a bit.

I miss my old equipment. In the old days, volume went from 0 to 10. Mine would go to 11.
Ha ! That's an old This is Spinal Tap joke. Humor is so hard on forums..........

Thanks for a meaningful answer

 

[lovinthehd]

Your relative volume scale is meaningless as a comparison to other units without a calibration, whether you are using 2 channels or not. If you're using the relative scale you should have a range above 0, but usually that's in excess of the avr's usable limits.

 

[Swerd]

As lovinthehd said, unless you go to the effort to calibrate things, it means little. I guess the AVR manufacturers got a bit carried away with that. How could your AVR know how loud things are without accounting for what speakers you use, how far you sit away from them, and what contribution your room's walls make? I wonder just how many people bother to 'calibrate' things to that extent. I know I never have.

Because of your newb status we will overlook your attempt to explain the 'mine goes to 11' reference. It is widely understood – and never gets old as a joke .

I miss my old equipment. In the old days, volume went from 0 to 10. Mine would go to 11.
Ha ! That's an old This is Spinal Tap joke. Humor is so hard on forums...

 

[Bucknekked]

Your relative volume scale is meaningless as a comparison to other units without a calibration, whether you are using 2 channels or not. If you're using the relative scale you should have a range above 0, but usually that's in excess of the avr's usable limits.

lovinthehd
Thats another good point : its a meaningless comparison point without calibration. The current state of the machine has meaning to me because I'm familiar with it. But compared to another AVR it won't have a direct translation. I may investigate whether or not my Denon will do an absolute scale : 0 to 99. Some AVRs apparently have that as a configurable option. Although, to be honest, I probably won't change it because I'm so used to seeing that -24db on the front panel and its a comfort thing.

When and IF I ever upgrade my amplification, then I'll consider either an absolute scale or going through the motions of calibrating the new beast. The problem is, considering an upgrade in 2017, there are so many all digital solutions its really hard to decide. The standard solutions are no longer the only great way to go.

I was always of the opinion that when I upgraded my AVR, I would do a straight up integrated power amp. Or, go with a top end AVR. Or maybe, if a rich distant relative died and left me a pile of shekels, I would go the monoblock separates with a pre-amp. All traditional solutions.

Now however, since my music source is all digital and my listening room of a modest size, I find that many all digital solutions are competitive answers. Streaming devices that do it all. Speakers now, like the KEF LS 50 Wireless, that simply do it all. What an exciting time to be in this hobby. So many great solutions and ways to enjoy the music.

 

[lovinthehd]

Obligatory pic

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

Your 85 dB in-room measurement is correctly dBSPL. Obviously the dB on your receiver volume control is something entirely different – dBV (voltage).

Think about it, there is no way a receiver’s volume control could be calibrated to accurately reflect the SPL in anyone’s room. People who have very efficient speakers would have the volume control turned up much less than those with inefficient speakers, which require a high volume setting.

As you have noted, the volume control on the receiver is scaled as negative: -10 dB is louder than -24 dB. If that seems counter-intuitive, it’s because the scale is actually telling you “how many dB before maximum output,” or something akin to that, with 0 dB being maximum. This is somewhat obfuscated by the fact that some receivers volumes (like yours) actually move to the (+) side of 0 dB, but that’s the basic idea.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[lovinthehd]

lovinthehd
Thats another good point : its a meaningless comparison point without calibration. The current state of the machine has meaning to me because I'm familiar with it. But compared to another AVR it won't have a direct translation. I may investigate whether or not my Denon will do an absolute scale : 0 to 99. Some AVRs apparently have that as a configurable option. Although, to be honest, I probably won't change it because I'm so used to seeing that -24db on the front panel and its a comfort thing.

When and IF I ever upgrade my amplification, then I'll consider either an absolute scale or going through the motions of calibrating the new beast. The problem is, considering an upgrade in 2017, there are so many all digital solutions its really hard to decide. The standard solutions are no longer the only great way to go.

I was always of the opinion that when I upgraded my AVR, I would do a straight up integrated power amp. Or, go with a top end AVR. Or maybe, if a rich distant relative died and left me a pile of shekels, I would go the monoblock separates with a pre-amp. All traditional solutions.

Now however, since my music source is all digital and my listening room of a modest size, I find that many all digital solutions are competitive answers. Streaming devices that do it all. Speakers now, like the KEF LS 50 Wireless, that simply do it all. What an exciting time to be in this hobby. So many great solutions and ways to enjoy the music.

One of the few reasons to calibrate it is to compare to others' levels on forums

Monoblocks are the audio equivalent of small penis cars.

 

[Bucknekked]

Obligatory pic View attachment 19763

I am saving that picture of the volume knob that goes to 11.
As Swerd said, some jokes never get old.

 

[Bucknekked]

One of the few reasons to calibrate it is to compare to others' levels on forums

Monoblocks are the audio equivalent of small penis cars.

I'm glad I wasn't eating when I read that post. I would have shot food out my nose.
As the great and wise Larry the Cable guy often says "I don't care who you are, that's funny right there"

I'll save you the details, but we were shopping for a new-to-us car last year. We were comparing two models and were kinda stuck on which one we liked best. The sales guy said the only reason people buy the one selection was so when they drive up in front of a group of folks and open the door, the car makes a statement saying "my dic$#$ is bigger than yours". We bought the other car. A great example of a small penis car.

 

[Bucknekked]

Your 85 dB in-room measurement is correctly dBSPL. Obviously the dB on your receiver volume control is something entirely different – dBV (voltage).

Think about it, there is no way a receiver’s volume control could be calibrated to accurately reflect the SPL in anyone’s room. People who have very efficient speakers would have the volume control turned up much less than those with inefficient speakers, which require a high volume setting.

As you have noted, the volume control on the receiver is scaled as negative: -10 dB is louder than -24 dB. If that seems counter-intuitive, it’s because the scale is actually telling you “how many dB before maximum output,” or something akin to that, with 0 dB being maximum. This is somewhat obfuscated by the fact that some receivers volumes (like yours) actually move to the (+) side of 0 dB, but that’s the basic idea.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Wayne
Thanks for the reply. The responses to this thread have filled in another gap in my understanding. I think if Denon had ended the scale at 0db, I may have understood it intuitively. It seems since there was a way to take a simple 0 to 10 volume scale and make it infinitely more complicated, they decided to take that route. Bless the folks who can decipher the difference.

 

[lovinthehd]

In time I think you'll appreciate the dB scale over just some random numbers on a dial....dB is logarithmic, too, not linear.

 

[Pogre]

I've been using the dB scale lately instead of 1-100. This confirmed some stuff for me too. I always understood it as 0db being the reference level (theater?), not max volume. by my logic, -24 would then be 24db below reference? I usually listen between -20 and -10, depending on the song. haven't been brave enough to push it too long at 0. like stated earlier, denon confused me by going 20db+ on the scale. does that mean anything above 0 is risking clipping?

I don't have a big penis car or monoblocks. I might have to join another forum...

 

[Bucknekked]

I've been using the dB scale lately instead of 1-100. This confirmed some stuff for me too. I always understood it as 0db being the reference level (theater?), not max volume. by my logic, -24 would then be 24db below reference? I usually listen between -20 and -10, depending on the song. haven't been brave enough to push it too long at 0. like stated earlier, denon confused me by going 20db+ on the scale. does that mean anything above 0 is risking clipping?

I don't have a big penis car or separates. I might have to join another forum...

Pogre
You are on the perfect forum. What loveinthehd said about monoblocks being like small penis cars just struck me as hilarious and something I can relate to. You live here in the valley of the sun. If you want to see a bunch of those, just drive up to north Scottsdale on a saturday. The place is overrun with them.

I have my own opinions on individuals who invest massive sums of money in audio systems and take things like their power cords more seriously than they take their spouses. I'll keep those to myself. Those guys are what I quote to my wife when I want to make a purchase. "see dear, look at what these other folks are paying for one of those". It doesn't work, but it gives me something to say other than begging.

 

[Pogre]

Pogre
You are on the perfect forum. What loveinthehd said about monoblocks being like small penis cars just struck me as hilarious and something I can relate to. You live here in the valley of the sun. If you want to see a bunch of those, just drive up to north Scottsdale on a saturday. The place is overrun with them.

I have my own opinions on individuals who invest massive sums of money in audio systems and take things like their power cords more seriously than they take their spouses. I'll keep those to myself. Those guys are what I quote to my wife when I want to make a purchase. "see dear, look at what these other folks are paying for one of those". It doesn't work, but it gives me something to say other than begging.

I manage a meat department for Fry's, 20 years now, and did some time in Scottsdale stores. I've seen whole parking lots full of those cars.

I chuckled when you said it gives you something else to say other than begging. ha ha

 

[lovinthehd]

I've been using the dB scale lately instead of 1-100. This confirmed some stuff for me too. I always understood it as 0db being the reference level (theater?), not max volume. by my logic, -24 would then be 24db below reference? I usually listen between -20 and -10, depending on the song. haven't been brave enough to push it too long at 0. like stated earlier, denon confused me by going 20db+ on the scale. does that mean anything above 0 is risking clipping?

I don't have a big penis car or monoblocks. I might have to join another forum...

Yes, -24dB is down 24dB from reference level. Only movies are recorded with such a standard, music is all over the place. I've seen a few avr manuals indicating above 0 isn't recommended but whether you'd be experiencing or even risking clipping would depend on more than just the volume knob alone...

Here's a big penis car, you gotta have big balls to drive one IMHO