Getting back into 2-channel

[heckeng]

Hi all, when my wife and I bought our first house, I sold all of my Rotel separates and bought what I thought was a nice Denon AV receiver and I didn't think I would miss the rotel stuff but I did. But I also still liked having the home theater. The Denon just didn't have the same depth that the Rotel setup did. So I sold the Denon and bought a nice Pioneer Elite receiver and unfortunately I feel the same about that. So, I am starting a new two chanel setup specifically for music. I am planning on using either PSB Imagine T2s or Revel F206 speakers just based on the phenomenal reviews they have both received. I am contemplating the amp, preamp. I would like to keep those two items under $3000 and I would prefer to avoid any class D amps as I feel like that may be part of the difference I am hearing. What would any of you suggest I try to listen to to start? It has been over 10 years since I have looked into any two channel stuff so I didn't want to limit myself to what I knew back then. Thank you for any help.

 

[PENG]

Hi all, when my wife and I bought our first house, I sold all of my Rotel separates and bought what I thought was a nice Denon AV receiver and I didn't think I would miss the rotel stuff but I did. But I also still liked having the home theater. The Denon just didn't have the same depth that the Rotel setup did. So I sold the Denon and bought a nice Pioneer Elite receiver and unfortunately I feel the same about that. So, I am starting a new two chanel setup specifically for music. I am planning on using either PSB Imagine T2s or Revel F206 speakers just based on the phenomenal reviews they have both received. I am contemplating the amp, preamp. I would like to keep those two items under $3000 and I would prefer to avoid any class D amps as I feel like that may be part of the difference I am hearing. What would any of you suggest I try to listen to to start? It has been over 10 years since I have looked into any two channel stuff so I didn't want to limit myself to what I knew back then. Thank you for any help.

I am curious to know what model Denon you bought to replace what models Rotel preamp/amp. Just want to guess if it was a power output issue or something else. Denon AVRs, except the top model AVR-X7200W really are not suitable for 4 ohm speakers, unless you are in a smaller room and sitting close to the speakers.

 

[ski2xblack]

Also, were you using the Denon with the same speakers as the Rotel kit, or did you change those too? What speakers were involved previously?

And what exactly do you mean by "depth"? Bass extension? Something else, perhaps having to do with soundstage, i.e. "depth of field"?

Was all processing bypassed in the AVR?

Just trying to get more info so we can correctly assess what's going on at your end. When discussing power as a possible cause of audible issues, we need to know the speakers involved, the details of your room, and your listening habits.

That stuff aside, the PSB's or Revels are fine speakers to base a two channel rig around. You should be able to get ears on them, assuming you have dealers within striking distance. An AVR is still the best value to control the system, especially if you use subs, since very little stereo kit has proper bass management.

 

[MrBoat]

Hard to believe not getting depth from a Denon unless it is a low watt model or something, compared to speaker efficiency perhaps. I am used to the old stuff, and I found the Denon surprisingly robust and capable. I was not expecting anything new-er impressing me but the Denon has. Even though the Denon I have is an older 3805, I cannot imagine they have gone backwards from there. The only time I found the Denon lacking is when the cat laid on the remote and switched it out of stereo mode. Also, IIRC, I had to set the speakers to "Large" in the setup menu.

My take with revisiting audio after a lengthy time off was instead the modern speakers with the smallish woofers being able to deliver the 'presence' I was after in 2 channel mode without a subwoofer or without by default, tripping into 2.1 setups as a cure, more than a preferential enhancement. Fortunately for me, there are still some speaker designers out there that understand this.

 

[heckeng]

The Denon was a 3806 and is hard to describe but the "depth" of the sound feels like it has been flattened. Bass is there but not impacting in The same way. Like a loud piano note vs the same tone from a big gong. The sound wasn't bad, just doesn't draw you in. The pioneer elite is the same thing. It is 120 w/c which is higher than the 2 channel Rotel amp it replaced at 70 w/c. My speakers have been the same the whole time and in the same location. They are PSB century 600i. Small towers with 2 6.5" woofers and a tweeter. Nice speakers but nothing crazy

 

[MrBoat]

The Denon was a 3806 and is hard to describe but the "depth" of the sound feels like it has been flattened. Bass is there but not impacting in The same way. Like a loud piano note vs the same tone from a big gong. The sound wasn't bad, just doesn't draw you in. The pioneer elite is the same thing. It is 120 w/c which is higher than the 2 channel Rotel amp it replaced at 70 w/c. My speakers have been the same the whole time and in the same location. They are PSB century 600i. Small towers with 2 6.5" woofers and a tweeter. Nice speakers but nothing crazy

There's something else going on there, then. Likely with the source, settings or the speakers have deteriorated somehow over time. I had the Denon powering my large JBL speakers up until 3 days ago and it was not lacking power, punch or presence in any way. I've had the same JBL speakers on 3 different amps in the last two months. The Denon makes the speakers sound as good as they can sound.

 

[PENG]

There's something else going on there, then. Likely with the source, settings or the speakers have deteriorated somehow over time. I had the Denon powering my large JBL speakers up until 3 days ago and it was not lacking power, punch or presence in any way. I've had the same JBL speakers on 3 different amps in the last two months. The Denon makes the speakers sound as good as they can sound.

Sound like we can form an old Denon clubhere. I have the KEF R900 (has 2X8" woofers) driven by my old 3805 and a pair of the miniature LS50 side by side driven by a 250W Halo amp. The Denon has no problem dealing with the much bigger R900 and I have no urge to switch amps between the two setups. I am quite familiar with Rotel integrated amp, so I would say if the OP's 3806 is in top shape, in pure direct mode it should have no trouble bettering a 70W Rotel amp. So I agree with you that there is something else going on there.

 

[TLS Guy]

There's something else going on there, then. Likely with the source, settings or the speakers have deteriorated somehow over time. I had the Denon powering my large JBL speakers up until 3 days ago and it was not lacking power, punch or presence in any way. I've had the same JBL speakers on 3 different amps in the last two months. The Denon makes the speakers sound as good as they can sound.

There is always something else going on and its called the speaker impedance curve and the phase angles.

Amps are not created equal. You can be lucky and be unlucky. With more expensive amps you have a better chance of driving adverse impedance loads and phase angles.

Amps are tested into resistive loads and that tells you very little about how the amp will drive your speakers. Unfortunately speaker manufacturers don't usually publish impedance curves and phase angles which they should.

I personally would never use a receiver in my reference systems for critical listening: - not a chance.

 

[3db]

There is always something else going on and its called the speaker impedance curve and the phase angles.

Amps are not created equal. You can be lucky and be unlucky. With more expensive amps you have a better chance of driving adverse impedance loads and phase angles.

Amps are tested into resistive loads and that tells you very little about how the amp will drive your speakers. Unfortunately speaker manufacturers don't usually publish impedance curves and phase angles which they should.

I personally would never use a receiver in my reference systems for critical listening: - not a chance.

Before you generalize, it depends on how big the room is and how loud you want to play the speakers at. The PSBs are fairly benign to drive so spending the extra money on a more robust amp is not required.

 

[ski2xblack]

Another variable I overlooked.

heckeng, you mentioned that you sold the Rotel kit prior to moving into your current home, correct? So different rooms are involved...how much bigger is your current listening room compared to your previous one?

If your current room is larger, open to other areas of the house, and involves greater distances to the speakers from the mlp, the anemic bass results you're experiencing make more sense.

Subs? No mention so far, but if I'm right about a larger acoustic space eating your bass, then a sub or two would be a possible solution.

 

[PENG]

There is always something else going on and its called the speaker impedance curve and the phase angles.

Amps are not created equal. You can be lucky and be unlucky. With more expensive amps you have a better chance of driving adverse impedance loads and phase angles.

Amps are tested into resistive loads and that tells you very little about how the amp will drive your speakers. Unfortunately speaker manufacturers don't usually publish impedance curves and phase angles which they should.

I personally would never use a receiver in my reference systems for critical listening: - not a chance.

Agree to a point and in general, but I am quite sure it does not apply specifically to this case because we are comparing a 70W Rotel to a robust AVR-3806. I bet the 3806's power supply is at least twice the size (VA) of the 70W Rotel's so when used in 2 channel application the 3806 will win regardless of speaker impedance.

 

[lovinthehd]

There is always something else going on and its called the speaker impedance curve and the phase angles.

Amps are not created equal. You can be lucky and be unlucky. With more expensive amps you have a better chance of driving adverse impedance loads and phase angles.

Amps are tested into resistive loads and that tells you very little about how the amp will drive your speakers. Unfortunately speaker manufacturers don't usually publish impedance curves and phase angles which they should.

I personally would never use a receiver in my reference systems for critical listening: - not a chance.

But seems you are still just taking a chance simply buying a more expensive amp merely in the hopes it has better performance. More expensive in audio has a better chance of being based in bullshit it seems....in general.

 

[heckeng]

Thank you all for your replies. They all make logical sense! I can tell you though, there is a definite difference.

I used the Rotel gear in our new house for a bit, then sold it to buy the denon. Then a couple years ago I bought a class D pioneer elite which is pretty much the same as the Denon. Speakers have remained in the same position. I added a velodyne 12" sub when I got the Denon and I still use it. My comments have not been in regards to the sub but to the front two channels speaker output. I have tried using the eq features etc but of course user error is possible with everything.

 

[MrBoat]

What source for 2 way are you sending to the AVR and how? In my current minimalist setup, I have my desk top pc connected to my AVR. I have it hooked into the CD input via the RCA jacks. I skimmed thru the manual, set some suggested parameters and then tried 3 different modes. Pure Direct, Direct, and Stereo. Both of the direct modes needed a lot more volume. The stereo mode so far has been the best of the three, and takes about half of the volume input and has an overall better sound.

Admittedly, my source material could use some work with garbage in being essentially garbage out, at least in either of the direct modes. Still, using just Pandora, youtube, and the CD player in the computer, I am getting some pretty righteous performance that bests my older 100watt A/B amp pretty handily. Other times when I just want to watch some informational videos, I will hook up the little desktop speakers I have in the headphone jack. The other day, I had turned the PC volume way up to accommodate the desktop speakers and forgot it. Turned on the Denon/Pandora and it damn near blew me out of my chair at just past 50%.

I have listened to a lot of live music both publicly and privately. I know what a kick drum and stand up bass, sounds/feels like. I know what a saxophone sounds/feels like in close quarters as well. The Denon is reproducing those sounds ever so realistically, in spite of my not having upgraded my sources. At about 26% volume, I am starting to become concerned with consideration to my neighbors and there is some distance between our houses. Their only problem being, that it sounds so good that I can't help myself, to the point where I start considering my actual legal rights, above all else.

 

[3db]

But seems you are still just taking a chance simply buying a more expensive amp merely in the hopes it has better performance. More expensive in audio has a better chance of being based in bullshit it seems....in general.

I see buying a beefy expensive amps as speaker proofing in that one has a greater selection of speakers to choose from without having to worry about driving an AVR in clipping. I'm talking extreme speaker impedances as those found in electrostatics as an example . A beefier amp will also allow one to play louder in a bigger room.

That being said, I would never blindly recommend an expensive beefy amp as the only way to go. I know that in my setup that a big F'in Krell, PassLab, Bryston, Classe, etc will NOT improve one iota, the sound I'm getting from my AVR. My room isn't that big, I don't play at insanely loud levels, nor are my speakers difficult to drive. I matched the capabilities of my AVR with the room size and load that my speaker presents to the amp.

 

[PENG]

I I know that in my setup that a big F'in Krell, PassLab, Bryston, Classe, etc will NOT improve one iota, the sound I'm getting from my AVR. My room isn't that big, I don't play at insanely loud levels, nor are my speakers difficult to drive. I matched the capabilities of my AVR with the room size and load that my speaker presents to the amp.

You never know, don't ever underestimate the Placebo magic factor!!

 

[heckeng]

I don't think power is the problem so much as how the power is handled. The Denon and the Pioneer both can get loud, and don't sound bad, but to me they sounded like regular commercial grade sound producers where in my opinion they are not your "average" units and should have more feeling and depth than other lesser options.

My source is mainly a regular Sony disc player. I don't use my computer or iPod etc.

I agree with 3db on a higher powered amp really just being insurance for the future as opposed to anything that is needed for these speakers. I am not going to do anything massive anyway, it will be in the 100-200 w/c range. Actually I really did think that little 70wpc sounded great.

What are your thoughts on an Oppo for a two channel source?

 

[MrBoat]

Somewhere around here I have an older 2 channel mosfet amp kicking around that I had traded a desktop computer tower for. I used it briefly but the surrounds on my speakers were crap and then I got talked into trading a similar replacement for one of the woofers instead of having it re-coned and it never did sound right and is when I lost interest in spending any more $ on audio equipment. So, I mothballed the entire op until just a couple months ago. I remember it having some big honking capacitors and heat sinks in it.

Now this thread has me curious that maybe I should try it out to see if I am indeed missing something, or at least put this curiosity to rest in my mind, once and for all. I'm hesitant though. These kind of things end up making me spend more money, with even more hardware stashed away.

 

[3db]

What are your thoughts on an Oppo for a two channel source?

Excellent choice if you live in the US. A little pricey for us Canadians.

 

[heckeng]

It feels wrong for me to use a universal disc player for a high end audio player but it has gotten such good reviews, I may try that I appreciate all of your all feedback. I will follow up and let people know if I move forward with a 2 channel setup or not and what the difference is.