revel ultima salon2 vs focal sopra no. 2

[skypickle]

I have a large room, 15ft x 40 ft and it has a sloped ceiling - 7ft on the low side 17 feet on the high side. The room is divided into two 20 foot long areas by a sound absorbing partition that is 7 feet high. The seating area has curtains all around and carpet. The seating consists of three armchairs. I need a fairly wide sweet spot. So the question (besides how these two speakers sound) is where to put them. I'd like to put them along the 14 ft wall and they can be away from it as well as the side walls. Seating will be 10-15 feet away. The benefit of putting the speakers along the wall supporting the sloped ceiling is that they face a large empty space -> no back all reflection. Yes I will need to find the first reflection point and add some sound traps. Amplification is ample and not a concern - either two ATI or benchmark mono blocks.

Which speaker pair has the best imaging (wide sweet spot)? That quality of the speakers disappearing and hearing the performers is the most magical aspect of listening. I am not into bone shaking loudness but do appreciate feeling the resonance of tight bass. My ears are over 40 so everything sounds smoother. Even chalk squealing on a chalkboard does not make me nauseous any more. I still can appreciate clarity though.

 

[KenM10759]

Given the price of either you should have no trouble getting an in-home demo with each of them.

 

[skypickle]

actually getting them second hand. so i cannot really demo them. I suppose I could go to natural sound in Framingham to listen to them tho. And maybe buy something else from them like balanced interconnects or something.

 

[Irvrobinson]

You need to listen for yourself. There's no other way to judge speakers.

If you choose the Salon2s (I use mine with an ATI amp), I can tell you that they perform best at least four feet away from the side and back walls, with the listening seat and the speakers in a near equilateral triangle. A higher ceiling is also much better, so plan your layout accordingly. I know the Salon2 disappears in the soundstage, and though I've never heard the Sopra No2, I'd bet it will too.

With speakers of this class you should consider using an in-room measuring tool (like the OmniMic) to see what's cooking, especially in the bass, and use a handheld digital recorder to make some in-room reference recordings to compare against. A deep male voice works well. I also recommend that you consider one or more subs to fill in gaps in the bass octaves, especially with the Focals.

 

[KenM10759]

actually getting them second hand. so i cannot really demo them. I suppose I could go to natural sound in Framingham to listen to them tho. And maybe buy something else from them like balanced interconnects or something.

No kidding? You must be relatively close to me if you can go there. Natural Sound is a dealer for both lines. In fact they aren't bashful about telling how one of their former employees is a "big deal" at Harmon.

I appreciate you considering buying a little something from them for their time in setting up a demo. You understand the value of having a local dealer.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I would choose the Salon2 over the Sopra2 just based on the specs and drivers alone.

I think the Sopra 2 compares better to the Revel Studio 2, not Salon2.

The Salon2 would have more bass and probably more dynamics.

We also know the speaker measurements of the Salon2 well. Is there even a speaker measurement of the Sopra 2?

So I would go with the Salon2.

 

[shadyJ]

Agreed. the Salon2 is a known superb quantity. Hard to think of a more neutral or accurately measuring loudspeaker.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Agreed. the Salon2 is a known superb quantity. Hard to think of a more neutral or accurately measuring loudspeaker.

Agreed, but I've found over the years (I've owned Salon2s since 2009) that such accuracy is not for everyone. Even when I prove to people with my own reference recordings that they are indeed accurate, during auditions with commercial recordings I hear that they lack bass, or the highs are too laid back, or whatever. So many people who should know better fall for elevated bass octaves and a 2-3db bump in the upper midrange. Even though I chase accuracy, I tell people to buy the colored speakers they prefer, if that's what will make them happy.

 

[skypickle]

Auditioned the studio2, sopra2 and the wilson yvettes. The wilsons were too forward. Although they disappeared and had an amazing soundstage, the highs were too brittle.. They did make the room sen taller than it was! The sopras made me feel like the ceiling was lower than it really was. A really intimate sound, smooth and a little veiled.Maybe because they had the midrange driver angled down and above the tweeter. The revels had a 3d soundstage, not as 'tall' as the wilsons but i perceived greater 'depth' - i could distinguish instruments closer and farther away. I walked right up to the middle in between them and still perceived the soundstage. I liked them the most.

A 'shortcoming' of all 3 though is that you really need to sit in the sweet spot. If you wander off to the side and cross the meridian of either speaker, then the soundstage breaks down and you hear the closer speaker. In the sound room, the speakers were about 6 feet apart with slight toe-in. I imagine in my room where they'd be 10 feet apart, the sweet spot would be larger.

 

[Irvrobinson]

A 'shortcoming' of all 3 though is that you really need to sit in the sweet spot. If you wander off to the side and cross the meridian of either speaker, then the soundstage breaks down and you hear the closer speaker. In the sound room, the speakers were about 6 feet apart with slight toe-in. I imagine in my room where they'd be 10 feet apart, the sweet spot would be larger.

That is definitely not my experience with the Salon2s. And six feet apart is too narrow. I use a 12x12x12 equilateral triangle (roughly). My previous speakers were definitely sweet spot wonders, but the Salon2s, not at all.

 

[shadyJ]

If any speaker is going to have a wide sweet spot (outside of omnidirectional speakers), it will be the Salon2. Their off-axis response is superb:

 

[skypickle]

where does one find that off axis response curve? I'd like to see that data for other speakers too!

 

[Irvrobinson]

Stereophile's web site.

 

[lovinthehd]

Let alone what they may sound like in your room....and in

where does one find that off axis response curve? I'd like to see that data for other speakers too!

Ascend Acoustics and Philharmonic offers such measurements for all their speakers off the top of my head.

 

[KEW]

where does one find that off axis response curve? I'd like to see that data for other speakers too!

That particular one came from the Soundstage website:
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/revel_ultima_salon2/

 

[KEW]

If any speaker is going to have a wide sweet spot (outside of omnidirectional speakers), it will be the Salon2. Their off-axis response is superb:

That is indeed impressive (the above is for 45, 60, and 75 degrees). Here is the graph of on-axis, 15, and 30 degrees:

However, the best off axis performance I have seen is the Philharmonitor BMR. The red trace is on-axis and the green trace is for 80 degrees off axis and never deviates more than 5dB!

http://philharmonicaudio.com/BMR Philharmonitor.html

 

[Audiot]

Skypickle, I have not heard the Sopra2s so take this for what it's worth coming from a Salon2 owner. There is not a better speaker to be had on the used market given the prices I've seen Salon2s going for lately. A good used pair is perhaps the best deal in high end audio market today given their popularity and the fire sale prices you can find them for. It's hard to see how a guy buying a used pair can go wrong.

I love mine, best speakers I've ever owned. The only advice is to make sure you buy enough amplifier to drive them properly. ATI seems to be the crossing point for value and is a popular choice. I run mine with a MC452, and that's working for me.

I'm surprised you only mention how they image and not how amazingly smooth and coherent they are from top to bottom and how beautifully extended the high end is without ever biting.
The design brief of the Salon2 was to have smooth off axis response. This minimizes the effects of the room when they are properly set up and it defines the characteristic required for great imaging and soundstage.

I doubt I'll ever sell mine or need a different speaker for years. They're good from the outset and get better and better as you own them and learn what the're about and what they can do. Their availability on the used market is a boon. They're classics and a great speaker. The Sopra is a fine product I'm sure, but this is the best direct radiator Harman has ever manufactured at a time when their engineering, research and design chops have been honed to be recognizable as state of the art.

 

[Art Vandelay]

My vote is also for the Salon2, but I think you'd be very happy with either.

The Salon2 is a speaker that I know very well because a friend owns a pair, and I get to hear them quite regularly, and driven by very high end SS amplification. I almost bought a pair myself, but ended up with B&W800 Diamonds.

Comments above are all valid IMO. The Salon's do an excellent job of creating well defined imaging with good depth of field. Perhaps not as expansive and speaker-less as some but still 8/10 in that dep't overall and better than the Sopra IMO.

The Salon's treble is also excellent, and really only limited by source and electronics although in some rooms the speakers may lack some air due to the directivity above 8kHz.

Salon mids are simply accurate, very detailed and in perfect balance.

Bass is extended and free from box coloration but you need a big powerful amp to get the max.

The Salon2 is a speaker that's difficult to criticise because it's so obviously free of many of the usual speaker vices. If I had to nominate an area of weakness it would probably be in the mid and upper bass where there's just a hint of congestion and a slight lack of coherence, but at this point it's really nit picking. Another point is that the bass may dominate in rooms that are too small or where the distance from room boundaries is insufficient. My friend has a large room but still needed to install traps on all corners to achieve near perfect balance.

FTR, Comparing them with my 800 di's is difficult because I've only heard them in different rooms and driven by different electronics. My impression though is that the Revel's are slightly more accurate, particularly from the mids and up. OTOH, the B&W's sound a bit bigger and bolder and deliver more dynamic impact and slam down low. I think the Revels win in terms of imaging specificity and scale, whereas the B&W's project everything a bit larger than life, but the B&W's imaging is more expansive, which may not be completely accurate but it's very inviting.

The new B&W800 D3's are a different beast and are a level above the Salon 2's but given the age difference as well as the rrp that's probably expected.

I'm definitely looking forward to hearing the Salon3, assuming there';s one in the pipeline.

 

[Irvrobinson]

The Salon's treble is also excellent, and really only limited by source and electronics although in some rooms the speakers may lack some air due to the directivity above 8kHz.

If I had to nominate an area of weakness it would probably be in the mid and upper bass where there's just a hint of congestion and a slight lack of coherence, but at this point it's really nit picking.

The new B&W800 D3's are a different beast and are a level above the Salon 2's but given the age difference as well as the rrp that's probably expected.

I'm definitely looking forward to hearing the Salon3, assuming there';s one in the pipeline.

Limited by electronics? Lack air above 8K due to directivity? Congestion and lack of coherence in the upper bass?

Are you an Absolute Sound reader? If you are, stop that. It rots your brain. ;-)

Where have you heard the 800D3s?

With Samsung's acquisition of Harman, I'm wondering if there will ever be a Salon3.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Limited by electronics? Lack air above 8K due to directivity? Congestion and lack of coherence in the upper bass?

Are you an Absolute Sound reader? If you are, stop that. It rots your brain. ;-)

Where have you heard the 800D3s?

With Samsung's acquisition of Harman, I'm wondering if there will ever be a Salon3.

I might have read Absolute Sound about once in my entire lifetime.

FTR, I've heard the Salon 2's paired with different amplification, ranging from ML Class D to Gryphon pure class A, and ditto preamps and sources. Even in the same listening room and playing the same CD source I've heard them sound bright and edgy as well as smooth and seductive, all due to changes in amplification.

WRT 800D3's, my local dealer has them setup in his prime demo room, driven by Krell amps and front end. I've heard many speakers in that room, and many had triple figure x 1000 price tags, but none have sounded as good as the 800D3's.