Critical eyes on $15K system and theater design

[jinjuku]

Emotivas are listed as class 'H' amps, which are a more efficient version of the A/B amp design. That said, my concern with Crown is that most people who are talking about them, own them, and have a vested interest in loving them.

I don't own Crown, or Emotiva. I think that since class 'D' amplifiers are susceptible to having issues at higher frequencies, that perhaps some actual independent lab results may be in order vs. word of mouth and advertised specifications.

As for weight... A lot can be said for overall build quality by the weight of the unit. A heavy amp doesn't mean better sound, but it could mean better build quality and durability over the years. Components put together with a better foundation. Not a big deal, but a small part of the overall picture.

My words are all meant to suggest that the original poster consider his options, not to suggest that Crown or Emotiva is the wrong/right way to go, but to not simply follow any recommendation given without a bit more homework on the matter.

I've done a ton of installed A/V also. Just recently installed an AMX HMDI Matrix switcher for 18 displays. The audio? Shure wireless mic system and a Crown CT600 4 channel Drive Core amp.

The issues you are raising sound about 10-13 years out of date.

 

[everettT]

IIRC aren't you using a crown on your statements?

I've done a ton of installed A/V also. Just recently installed an AMX HMDI Matrix switcher for 18 displays. The audio? Shure wireless mic system and a Crown CT600 4 channel Drive Core amp.

The issues you are raising sound about 10-13 years out of date.

 

[KEW]

Sorry, I meant that they are class 'D' amplifiers, my bad. Unfortunately, these are known for having issues when dealing with higher frequencies and introducing distortion.

Here is a list of the specifications for ATI amplifiers. Note that the models ending in "NC" are the new class D series from ATI and their 20Hz-20kHz THD is 33% lower (at 0.02%) than those for the class AB amps:
http://www.ati-amp.com/manuals/ATIpowerampspecs.pdf

Per Morris Kessler, ATI’s president and chief engineer, “We are excited to offer amplifiers with ATI’s legendary high performance and reliability in designs that reduce amplifier weight by up to 50%.”

With rated distortion below 0.05% and signal-to-noise ratio of 123 dB (minimum, referenced to rated output), each amplifier in the series is capable of playing back the full dynamic range available on today’s lossless recordings.

Pricing: MSRP AT522NC Stereo Amplifier (200W RMS per channel) $1,895.00 AT523NC 3-channel Amplifier (200W RMS per channel) $2,295.00 AT524NC 4-channel Amplifier (200W RMS per channel) $2,595.00 AT525NC 5-channel Amplifier (200W RMS per channel) $2,995.00 AT526NC 6-channel Amplifier (200W RMS per channel) $3,295.00 AT527NC 7-channel Amplifier (200W RMS per channel) $3,695.00 AT528NC 8-channel Amplifier (200W RMS per channel) $3,995.00

AT542NC Stereo Amplifier (500W RMS per channel) $2,595.00 AT543NC 3-channel Amplifier (500W RMS per channel) $3,295.00 AT544NC 4-channel Amplifier (500W RMS per channel) $3,995.00

All ATI AT5XXNC amplifiers are covered by ATI’s 7-year transferrable warranty and are available in standard (17”) chassis. A 19” rack-mount adapter is available

http://www.ati-amp.com/AT52XNC.php

I have a hard time believing that a company like ATI (or Crown) would branch into class D amplifiers if they could not resolve the known issues with HF sound quality!

I do recognize class D had issues in the past with high frequencies.

 

[jinjuku]

IIRC aren't you using a crown on your statements?

Yes and for the past couple of years at the Central KyIana GTG we've been using a 1502 to drive everything along with a Threshold Stasis amp to give an idea of a comparison.

When problems are solved they don't get 'more solved'.

 

[BMXTRIX]

I've done a ton of installed A/V also. Just recently installed an AMX HMDI Matrix switcher for 18 displays. The audio? Shure wireless mic system and a Crown CT600 4 channel Drive Core amp.

The issues you are raising sound about 10-13 years out of date.

This is exactly what Crown is designed for. I'm not sure of the musicality of the system, but they pretty much speak directly about voice reinforcement in their literature. About how people will be heard. Lots of power there, and good build quality. My only question, and it is a question, is how they really perform, compared to A/B type amps, in home theater.

We use Crown all the time with AMX, PureLink, Crestron, and the rest, and in our 'nobody cares about quality' sound systems, where they want reliability, in auditoriums, board rooms, and command centers, Crown is great. As is Extron, or Crestron, or a long list of others. All I'm asking is for is actual research, not just word of mouth, and I'm not talking about the manufacturer's specifications, but actual professional reviews, for the listening that is intended.

Which, still does not mean that I'm speaking against their quality.

 

[slipperybidness]

Emotivas are listed as class 'H' amps, which are a more efficient version of the A/B amp design. That said, my concern with Crown is that most people who are talking about them, own them, and have a vested interest in loving them.

I don't own Crown, or Emotiva. I think that since class 'D' amplifiers are susceptible to having issues at higher frequencies, that perhaps some actual independent lab results may be in order vs. word of mouth and advertised specifications.

As for weight... A lot can be said for overall build quality by the weight of the unit. A heavy amp doesn't mean better sound, but it could mean better build quality and durability over the years. Components put together with a better foundation. Not a big deal, but a small part of the overall picture.

My words are all meant to suggest that the original poster consider his options, not to suggest that Crown or Emotiva is the wrong/right way to go, but to not simply follow any recommendation given without a bit more homework on the matter.

Those high freq problems were engineered out of good class D amps years ago. I think Crown makes sense for HT, where efficiency and heat in a rack may be a concern.

 

[jinjuku]

This is exactly what Crown is designed for. I'm not sure of the musicality of the system, but they pretty much speak directly about voice reinforcement in their literature. About how people will be heard. Lots of power there, and good build quality. My only question, and it is a question, is how they really perform, compared to A/B type amps, in home theater.

We use Crown all the time with AMX, PureLink, Crestron, and the rest, and in our 'nobody cares about quality' sound systems, where they want reliability, in auditoriums, board rooms, and command centers, Crown is great. As is Extron, or Crestron, or a long list of others. All I'm asking is for is actual research, not just word of mouth, and I'm not talking about the manufacturer's specifications, but actual professional reviews, for the listening that is intended.

Which, still does not mean that I'm speaking against their quality.

Here is the thing: Drive Core at it's fundamental is a chip package. It's a sku that sits on a shelf and get's plugged into all sorts of applications. Including Infinity, Mark Levinson, JBL Pro and Synthesis.

My amp is linear from 20Hz to 20Khz. Stereo crosstalk is competitive with other classes of well designed amps, so is SNR.

The K2 series by Crown was also well received and that was back in the late 90's.

Try googling for a review/measurement. I know two years ago people here were pestering Gene for a review of a pro audio amp.

 

[tigershark]

Thanks again everyone for the feedback. My hope is to get this done by Jan 1. I'll post some pics and notes once it is wrapped up.

 

[lovinthehd]

This is exactly what Crown is designed for. I'm not sure of the musicality of the system, but they pretty much speak directly about voice reinforcement in their literature. About how people will be heard. Lots of power there, and good build quality. My only question, and it is a question, is how they really perform, compared to A/B type amps, in home theater.

We use Crown all the time with AMX, PureLink, Crestron, and the rest, and in our 'nobody cares about quality' sound systems, where they want reliability, in auditoriums, board rooms, and command centers, Crown is great. As is Extron, or Crestron, or a long list of others. All I'm asking is for is actual research, not just word of mouth, and I'm not talking about the manufacturer's specifications, but actual professional reviews, for the listening that is intended.

Which, still does not mean that I'm speaking against their quality.

Hmmm. They're designed for live music presentations as well as recorded music presentations....so those wouldn't need "musical" gear? Just WTF is musical when it comes to an amp? How do you determine this since its obviously not from actually using or testing gear?

 

[BMXTRIX]

Hmmm. They're designed for live music presentations as well as recorded music presentations....so those wouldn't need "musical" gear? Just WTF is musical when it comes to an amp? How do you determine this since its obviously not from actually using or testing gear?

They are designed for installed sound. Typically in large venues, auditoriums, boardrooms, etc. They aren't really designed for spaces with low noise floors, with just a few viewers on really high quality speakers. Especially their cheaper amps. The other class-D amp, linked above (ATI) is $2,000+ for a class-D amp 2-channel model. Why the significant disparity in pricing between a 2-channel Crown class-D amp and a ATI 2-channel class-D amp? I don't have the answer, but I lean towards the reason being that it takes more hardware to make the class-D amps sound as good as a well built class A/B amp.

Similarly, just because they use JBL VTC speakers in a large venue/auditorium, does not mean those are the speakers for your home.

It (once again) doesn't mean the Crown amp isn't excellent, but just because it is durable, and produces a lot of power, does not guarantee that it can accurately do so across all frequencies with the same quality as the Emotiva, or ATI amps can. Using a completely different market (installed sound) as proof of home theater quality is not proof at all. It actually needs to be bench tested, and should be bench tested. Which, would certainly end my concern. I have stated several times now that the lack of bench testing for home theater use should concern anyone looking for the best quality in that situation.

 

[jinjuku]

There are some AVS threads with measured output of the Drive Cores. Nothing there suggests that they aren't just a neutral, linear amp with good SNR/Crosstalk numbers.

Crown makes amps from $300 to $14,000. The price reflects what the amp is supposed to do.

We are both installers so I HAVE to ask: Why a Crown can be installed for professional AV: Corporate board room, theaters, HOW, live sound. Your response as a seasoned sound and video installer is just baffling to say the least. Honestly I think you should know better.

Don't ask why the ATI Class D sells for $2000. Ask why Crowns Class D sells in the ~$400 range. And here is the answer:

1. They didn't pay for anyone else's design. They aren't paying B&O, they aren't paying Bruno Putzeys. They shrunk 500 discrete components to a single piece of silicon and went from 10V to 1.4 volt to drive it all.

2. They worked with T.I. to develop the silicon and give it the thermal noise performance of discrete audio components.

3. They developed their own Triangle Gate

4. They developed their own op amps

5. They develop their own power supplies

The upfront costs are huge but the long term carry costs are a helluva lot less than paying royalties.

6. The have a sku now that is in Crown, Infinity, Levinson, JBL.... If your car has a head unit by Infinity (either badged or OEM) it has this tech in it.

7. Volume drives cost down. They probably pay PENNIES for the chip now.

8. ATI doesn't have the engineering bench to do this so they can't get the cost down.

9. Crown has over 25 years of experience doing PWM designs now. They have more time on this style of amp and more patents than their 5 largest competitors combined.

10. The XLS series is pointedly designed for live sound. All their implementation guides are geared toward this use.

 

[KEW]

There are some AVS threads with measured output of the Drive Cores. Nothing there suggests that they aren't just a neutral, linear amp with good SNR/Crosstalk numbers.

Crown makes amps from $300 to $14,000. The price reflects what the amp is supposed to do.

We are both installers so I HAVE to ask: Why a Crown can be installed for professional AV: Corporate board room, theaters, HOW, live sound. Your response as a seasoned sound and video installer is just baffling to say the least. Honestly I think you should know better.

Don't ask why the ATI Class D sells for $2000. Ask why Crowns Class D sells in the ~$400 range. And here is the answer:

1. They didn't pay for anyone else's design. They aren't paying B&O, they aren't paying Bruno Putzeys. They shrunk 500 discrete components to a single piece of silicon and went from 10V to 1.4 volt to drive it all.

2. They worked with T.I. to develop the silicon and give it the thermal noise performance of discrete audio components.

3. They developed their own Triangle Gate

4. They developed their own op amps

5. They develop their own power supplies

The upfront costs are huge but the long term carry costs are a helluva lot less than paying royalties.

6. The have a sku now that is in Crown, Infinity, Levinson, JBL.... If your car has a head unit by Infinity (either badged or OEM) it has this tech in it.

7. Volume drives cost down. They probably pay PENNIES for the chip now.

8. ATI doesn't have the engineering bench to do this so they can't get the cost down.

9. Crown has over 25 years of experience doing PWM designs now. They have more time on this style of amp and more patents than their 5 largest competitors combined.

10. The XLS series is pointedly designed for live sound. All their implementation guides are geared toward this use.

God, I hope Samsung lets Harman Industries be Harman Industries. They have done so much for audio!

 

[jinjuku]

They are designed for installed sound. Typically in large venues, auditoriums, boardrooms, etc. They aren't really designed for spaces with low noise floors

The SNR on the 1502 and above is 103dB so it's competitive. Certainly good enough for a home space.

 

[jinjuku]

Please, nobody take this as the XLS being the end all be all. It's simply an option to look at especially given the context of this thread and a dedicated HT room. I know the Emotiva is a solid amp also.

People should always get ears on and evaluate for themselves. After all they will be the ones having to live with it.

 

[slipperybidness]

Please, nobody take this as the XLS being the end all be all. It's simply an option to look at especially given the context of this thread and a dedicated HT room. I know the Emotiva is a solid amp also.

People should always get ears on and evaluate for themselves. After all they will be the ones having to live with it.

My biggest concerns on the XLS was those retina-burning LEDs!

I think the new generation of XLS corrected that?

 

[jinjuku]

My biggest concerns on the XLS was those retina-burning LEDs!

I think the new generation of XLS corrected that?

4 improvements:

True .775 v/rms consumer level output

DSP/xover more feature rich

Larger display

Dimmable display

 

[tigershark]

Ok, I've run into a problem. HELP! I've got a door right where I need to be placing my back surround speaker and I'm not going to pay to move it. I see three options (see pdf photo attached)

A) Put in a bookshelf speaker above the light. This would put it at about 115% from ideal listening location (off from 135 to 150 degree recommended atmos spec)

B) Put an inwall speaker in placement B. Closer to ideal angle but the sound is then shooting too far to the side behind the speakers

C) put in an articulating mounted bookshelf in placement B. This puts speaker in the right location but then it overlaps with entry way. door opens away from theater so technically would work but could see people regularly bumping into it. Unless there is some crazy articulating option that allows the speaker to be pushed out of the way when not in use.

D) put in speaker sideways above the door. Doesn't seem like this would be a good option. Speaker is firing too high.

 

[shadyJ]

Ok, I've run into a problem. HELP! I've got a door right where I need to be placing my back surround speaker and I'm not going to pay to move it. I see three options (see pdf photo attached)

A) Put in a bookshelf speaker above the light. This would put it at about 115% from ideal listening location (off from 135 to 150 degree recommended atmos spec)

B) Put an inwall speaker in placement B. Closer to ideal angle but the sound is then shooting too far to the side behind the speakers

C) put in an articulating mounted bookshelf in placement B. This puts speaker in the right location but then it overlaps with entry way. door opens away from theater so technically would work but could see people regularly bumping into it. Unless there is some crazy articulating option that allows the speaker to be pushed out of the way when not in use.

D) put in speaker sideways above the door. Doesn't seem like this would be a good option. Speaker is firing too high.

Use placement A, on the left side of the door, and maybe use an in-wall speaker like the Hsu HIWs or better yet and angled speaker like the JBL 8320 speakers or the SVS Elevation Primes

 

[tigershark]

Makes sense. Do you think the elevated speakers will work well with the 4 ceiling speakers?

I also was digging around more and noticed that THX recommends surround speakers in the back wall be placed more toward the center. What about sticking with bookshelf speakers but placing the rear right speaker just to the left of the outlet and slightly elevated above ear level?

http://www.thx.com/consumer/home-entertainment/home-theater/surround-sound-speaker-set-up/

 

[shadyJ]

Makes sense. Do you think the elevated speakers will work well with the 4 ceiling speakers?

I also was digging around more and noticed that THX recommends surround speakers in the back wall be placed more toward the center. What about sticking with bookshelf speakers but placing the rear right speaker just to the left of the outlet and slightly elevated above ear level?

http://www.thx.com/consumer/home-entertainment/home-theater/surround-sound-speaker-set-up/

That sounds like it will work. Just stay as close as you can to Dolby's recommended placement, and you will have a nice sounding system.