Please help with crossover settings

[jsc1205]

Have a question about crossovers. Here is my speaker setup and I'm trying to figure out best crossover settings for all speakers:

Subwoofer (DefTech Supercube 8000)- 40hz to 150khz
L&R (M&K 950F)- 80hz to 20khz
Center (M&K LCR950)- 80hz to 20khz
Surrounds (M&K SUR95T)- 87hz to 20khz
Ceiling (M&K M5)- 100hz to 20khz

Also would like to know what the LFE crossover should be set at.
Thanks!!!

 

[lovinthehd]

Can you set crossovers separately for each speaker set or is it a universal crossover only? I'd go with mains and surrounds somewhere in the range of 80 to 120, ceiling 100-120. Experiment a bit.

For LFE you mean the LPF of LFE? General content limit is 120hz so I'd use that if that's what you're asking about.

Does your avr have an automatic setup? What did it recommend for crossover?

 

[jsc1205]

Yes I can set each speaker separately. I just purchased the new Denon AVR-X6300H receiver so it has Audyssey MultiEQ 32. When I ran it the crossovers were all over the place. I pretty much changed them to exactly what you suggested but wasn't sure how to calculate the settings based on the subwoofer specs
Yes there is a separate subwoofer crossover setting in the receiver menu


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[j_garcia]

I'd start with 100 or 80 given the speaker responses and 100 or 120 for the ceilings. 120 on the LFE, basically you shouldn't touch the LFE x-over.

 

[jsc1205]

Awesome thanks


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[lovinthehd]

Yes I can set each speaker separately. I just purchased the new Denon AVR-X6300H receiver so it has Audyssey MultiEQ 32. When I ran it the crossovers were all over the place. I pretty much changed them to exactly what you suggested but wasn't sure how to calculate the settings based on the subwoofer specs
Yes there is a separate subwoofer crossover setting in the receiver menu


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Just be sure to only raise crossovers with Audyssey, not lower them. Crossovers are also based on your room acoustics, not just your speakers' rated response. If you tried what was suggested what did you decide on in the ranges suggested?

A crossover is a combination of a low pass filter (for your sub) and a high pass filter (for your speakers), for both LFE and redirected bass from your speakers. The LPF of LFE is not a crossover, it is simply a limit on the content played from the LFE channel (the .1 content in source material that has such), i.e. it is only a low pass filter.

 

[XEagleDriver]

JSC1205,
Welcome to the Forum.

In general, you would try to get the subwoofer to handle frequencies below the ability of the other speakers with a bit of overlap. Furthermore, a crossover is a slope (i.e. 6dB/octave, 12dB/octave, etc.) and not a wall (i.e. all below and none above). The specified frequency (80Hz, 90Hz, etc.) is normally the -3dB point. This is the frequency on the crossover slope where about half the sound is sent to the speaker and half to the subwoofer.
One last consideration is when a subwoofer is asked to produce sounds above ~120Hz it starts to be localized. This means you are able to note where the low frequency sounds are coming from (i.e. where the sub is; not a good thing) instead of these low frequency sounds blending into the background and appearing to emanate from the other speakers.

- If the AVR/preamp only allows one global setting I would expect the best setting to be in the 80-100Hz range. Experiment a bit to see what sounds best to you. One technique I like is to start with the crossover setting at one extreme (i.e. lowest allowed, for example 40 Hz), then alternate to the other extreme (i.e. highest allowed, for example 250Hz), and go back and forth gradually narrowing in to what sounds best--you kind of train your ears to hear the differences by doing this. It is a bit like the eye doctor routine of which is better, A or B, then C or D, . . .

- If the AVR allows separate crossover settings than I would start with about the following:
L&R speakers capable to 80hz, set crossover to 90Hz
Center capable to 80hz, set crossover to 90Hz
Surrounds capable to 87hz, set crossover to 100Hz
Ceiling capable to 100hz, set crossover to 120Hz
- Why more overlap on this last one, you astutely ask? I would expect the ceilings to be the least capable at low frequency production, so the extra overlap shifts the curve a bit.

Cheers,
XEagleDriver

 

[jsc1205]

So do you suggest using the crossovers Audyssey sets and not necessarily use the manufacturers spec? Reason why I ask is after Audyssey I noticed the surrounds were set to something in the 60hz range but it's rated as 80hz. So I just went in after Audyssey and changed mains to 80hz, surrounds to 80hz and ceiling to 100hz as per the spec sheet


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[lovinthehd]

So do you suggest using the crossovers Audyssey sets and not necessarily use the manufacturers spec? Reason why I ask is after Audyssey I noticed the surrounds were set to something in the 60hz range but it's rated as 80hz. So I just went in after Audyssey and changed mains to 80hz, surrounds to 80hz and ceiling to 100hz as per the spec sheet


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The manufacturer's spec doesn't take into account your room acoustics, but the microphone measurements do. I usually raise my crossovers over what Audyssey recommends in any case. I currently use 120 on my mains and surrounds (200 for rear surrounds) and my speakers are spec'd with a lower frequency range than your speakers. I have four more capable subs (both lower and higher frequency range than yours) around the room and have no localization issues either, which I think is often the deciding factor.

Keep in mind the lower frequency spec of your speaker isn't necessarily an indication of what it can do in terms of spl capability or at what distortion level compared to your sub's capabilities. In general I would say your sub is your weak point, it isn't really a true subwoofer (DefTec subs lower frequency range handling is overstated by DT), you can do much better in that respect (unless you simply need a very small subwoofer).

 

[jsc1205]

JSC1205,
Welcome to the Forum.

In general, you would try to get the subwoofer to handle frequencies below the ability of the other speakers with a bit of overlap. Furthermore, a crossover is a slope (i.e. 6dB/octave, 12dB/octave, etc.) and not a wall (i.e. all below and none above). The specified frequency (80Hz, 90Hz, etc.) is normally the -3dB point. This is the frequency on the crossover slope where about half the sound is sent to the speaker and half to the subwoofer.
One last consideration is when a subwoofer is asked to produce sounds above ~120Hz it starts to be localized. This means you are able to note where the low frequency sounds are coming from (i.e. where the sub is; not a good thing) instead of these low frequency sounds blending into the background and appearing to emanate from the other speakers.

- If the AVR/preamp only allows one global setting I would expect the best setting to be in the 80-100Hz range. Experiment a bit to see what sounds best to you. One technique I like is to start with the crossover setting at one extreme (i.e. lowest allowed, for example 40 Hz), then alternate to the other extreme (i.e. highest allowed, for example 250Hz), and go back and forth gradually narrowing in to what sounds best--you kind of train your ears to hear the differences by doing this. It is a bit like the eye doctor routine of which is better, A or B, then C or D, . . .

- If the AVR allows separate crossover settings than I would start with about the following:
L&R speakers capable to 80hz, set crossover to 90Hz
Center capable to 80hz, set crossover to 90Hz
Surrounds capable to 87hz, set crossover to 100Hz
Ceiling capable to 100hz, set crossover to 120Hz
- Why more overlap on this last one, you astutely ask? I would expect the ceilings to be the least capable at low frequency production, so the extra overlap shifts the curve a bit.

Cheers,
XEagleDriver

Thanks for your info! I'm using the new Denon AVR-X6300H receiver so I'm able to change speaker crossover separately.
So since you suggested 90hz for the L/C/R and surrounds (spec sheet says 80hz - 120khz), should the surrounds (spec sheet says 87hz - 20khz) and the ceiling (100hz - 20khz) be bumped up as well?


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[jsc1205]

XEagleDriver

Have a different question for you regarding setup after Audyssey. What do you typically do with speaker levels? Subs levels especially are really low after Audyssey. Do you suggest running test tone at 0db with sound meter to get all levels to 75db? Or just concentrate on bumping only the sub level up?

By the way, from your user name I take it you were AF? I've been in since 97 as a HARM/SARM so I would have been the guy stepping you


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[lovinthehd]

FWIW many typically raise the sub level after Audyssey. I usually do somewhere between 2-4 dB....

 

[little wing]

I don't know if this helps at all, but I recently purchased a subwoofer from Rythmik. Along with the sub they sent me a CD with 11 tracks. Each track was a difference frequency test tone, beginning at 1khz. The next track was 200hz, then 160, then 125, and so on, down to 20hz.

I have my crossover set to 80hz and all speakers set to small. As I played the CD on my system, bass sounds started coming from the sub at 100hz. As the tracks played down to 20hz, I noticed the sounds still coming from my main speakers all the way down to 20hz. But the volume got lower and lower when the frequency tone dropped. This was educational to me because even though I set the crossover to 80hz on my main speakers they still played sounds below 80hz, albeit at a lower volume. I didn't know this before.

 

[lovinthehd]

Sometimes it just helps to "see" a crossover via graphics

 

[XEagleDriver]

XEagleDriver

Have a different question for you regarding setup after Audyssey. What do you typically do with speaker levels? Subs levels especially are really low after Audyssey. Do you suggest running test tone at 0db with sound meter to get all levels to 75db? Or just concentrate on bumping only the sub level up?

By the way, from your user name I take it you were AF? I've been in since 97 as a HARM/SARM so I would have been the guy stepping you

JSC1205,
First off, thanks for your service to our nation and I hope you enjoy the Veteran's Day holiday.
I flew in the USAF, first in Talons and then Eagles, from 82 to 07; was blessed and lucky to enjoy the entire stint (when you are done, you ram dump the petty BS pretty quick).

I do not adjust Audyssey speaker levels other than the sub. Like you, I found Audyssey to set the sub on the low side. My Denon AVR is a few releases old, so I don't know if more recent Audyssey releases are better at setting the sub.

Cheers,
XEagleDriver

 

[XEagleDriver]

I don't know if this helps at all, but I recently purchased a subwoofer from Rythmik. Along with the sub they sent me a CD with 11 tracks. Each track was a difference frequency test tone, beginning at 1khz. The next track was 200hz, then 160, then 125, and so on, down to 20hz.

I have my crossover set to 80hz and all speakers set to small. As I played the CD on my system, bass sounds started coming from the sub at 100hz. As the tracks played down to 20hz, I noticed the sounds still coming from my main speakers all the way down to 20hz. But the volume got lower and lower when the frequency tone dropped. This was educational to me because even though I set the crossover to 80hz on my main speakers they still played sounds below 80hz, albeit at a lower volume. I didn't know this before.

Little Wing,
Thank you for the description of what the crossover slope sounds like. Rythmik provides a lot of control on sub performance, one of these settings may explain the 100Hz upper end observation (not that this is a bad thing).
Cheers,
XEagleDriver

 

[jsc1205]

xEagleDriver
I re-ran Audyssey to double check what crossover settings it would give and here are the results (see photo).
What are your thoughts on this considering the speaker specs I gave at the beginning of this post and you suggestion of bumping them up?

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[little wing]

Little Wing,
Thank you for the description of what the crossover slope sounds like. Rythmik provides a lot of control on sub performance, one of these settings may explain the 100Hz upper end observation (not that this is a bad thing).
Cheers,
XEagleDriver

Your welcome!

 

[XEagleDriver]

xEagleDriver
I re-ran Audyssey to double check what crossover settings it would give and here are the results (see photo).
What are your thoughts on this considering the speaker specs I gave at the beginning of this post and you suggestion of bumping them up?

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1) The front and center settings look good to me. I am not surprised Audyssey put the fronts 20Hz lower, the tower cabinets are a lot bigger than the center speaker. I have found I prefer a bit lower setting on front towers, especially for 2-channel sources played back in a stereo or direct/pure direct format.

2) If I understand correctly, the surrounds and surround backs are the same type speaker, SUR 95T. IMHO these two settings should be closer than 100 and 150Hz.
- ?? Is there is a signicant placement difference that moght be causing an elevated surround bass response, such as corner loading?
- I would adjust the surround backs to 100Hz or 120 Hz. The 150Hz setting seems a bit high to me and I don't like to send frequencies inviting sub localization.

3) I assume your ceiling front and rear speakers are also the same type and are being used for ATMOS duty. I looked up M&K and liked what I read, silk dome tweeters are one of my favorites.
- ?? Your post cited M-5 speakers (small bookshelfs) or are they the IW-5 inwall/ceiling speakers?
In either case I would set these to the same 100Hz setting.

Hope that helps,
XEagleDriver

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[jsc1205]

1. The L and R are basically the exact same speaker as the C but just in a tower form. Speaker diameters are exactly the same.

2. The surrounds are all exactly the same speaker. No difference in locations from side and back.

3. Yes ceilings are all the same as well M&K M5 bookshelf type, not in-wall.

Reading on crossovers on Audioholics they mention to not lower the crossover under the manufacture spec....which for the L/R is 80hz. So would 60hz be ok??

Thanks again for your input


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