Numpty in need!

[LeeTR]

Let me begin by stating that I'm a complete ignoramus when it comes to electronic engineering. Furthermore, until 6 months ago I hadn't owned a decent hifi system for 14 years! Priorities, life, family, etc...

Anyway, I decided I'd waited long enough to splash out on a decent system, so I did some minor research - too little, considering the amount of money I was prepared to spend - and went to the local hifi store.

Over the years my records and CDs were replaced with music stored in the cloud, so I wanted: speakers, amp and a network player. After listening to various combinations of different products I settled on the following:
B & W CM9s
Cambridge Azur 851A
Cambridge Azur 851N

Now, compared to what I've used in the intervening 14 years since I last owned a decent hifi, the system sounds great. However, in the 6 months since I bought it, I've grown ever so slightly dissatisfied. I'm pretty sure it's the speakers that have caused this. The bass is fine but, the midrange sounds a little "brash" at higher volumes and the tweeter is disappointing (I have to turn up the treble to compensate).

Is there anything I can do to improve my situation? Is it possible to replace the tweeters with superior ones, for example?

My ignorance is embarrassing enough, so please be gentle with me!

 

[afterlife2]

Welcome! Can we see how you have it setup? Pics!

 

[tyhjaarpa]

I would not try to modify the speakers, would be better to sell them and buy new speakers. How ever there are things you can do before that. Speaker placement has quite big factor in sound and so does room acoustics and I would start from here. Could you take some pics from your listening room and how your speakers are setup?

 

[shadyJ]

Speaker placement is important is getting the most out of your speakers. Here is a good diagram for an ideal placement:

note the stand-off distance of the speakers from the wall. Note also the listener position placement.

You might think about getting an equalizer and EQing the speaker. Do not try to physically modify the speaker.

 

[TLS Guy]

I don't think the problem is the tweeter.

The trouble with B & W is that they drive those Kevlar cones up too high. The crossover is 4 KHz. Although this driver is resigned to break up, in my view it is a little harsh in its upper range. This I think is what you describe as brash. The tweeter is OK. The tone controls are not what you need to control this as the tone controls are starting to turn up power in the break up mode. Tone controls are in the main useless and usually do more harm than good.

This what yours do.

The other thing is that amp is a pretty beefy integrated amp, but might not be enough for those speakers. The impedance of your speakers drops to 3.2 ohms. Your amp is 4 ohm capable. But the problem remains that so many B & W speakers are difficult to drive loads and yours are no exception. Unfortunately this is common in three way designs with passive crossovers.

I personally am fast coming to the view that three ways should be designed containing their own amps and active crossovers. These passive three ways so often really need to be driven by an arc welder!

It is actually very difficult to make three way passive speakers present an easy load to an amplifier. Just tell me about it.

First time DIY builders always seem to want to start by designing a three way. Definitely the wrong way to go for beginners.

However the bottom line is that if you don't like those speakers then I think the usual advice stands to change speakers rather than electronics.

You will have to be careful though as there are far worse sounding speakers then the ones you have and that includes most of them.

 

[KenM10759]

I know I'm very lucky to have the hi-fi store I deal with because I know that if I had such an issue even 6 months after buying they would go to the ends of the earth to make it right. This store, what other lines do they have and would they allow you a week or two with other speakers to learn if there's a better alternative for you?

If they value your business they will do this and make an offer to accept yours back with most of full credit toward speakers they suit you better, presuming they cost the same or more. When I heard some other speakers at my dealer which intrigued me, they offered that to me without being asked.

 

[LeeTR]

Thank you all for your responses. I've positioned my speakers as best I can, acoustically, while trying to balance it with the room aesthetics. I'd like the luxury of a purpose-designed listening room, but hey, who wouldn't? They are as close to the recommended setup as possible.

From the responses so far, I should forget modifications and, either replace them or make do. I'll have a chat with the store and see if they can offer some kind of part exchange... maybe. I mean, it's a good system, especially when I play hi-def files, it's just that I'm a bit of a perfectionist

 

[Swerd]

I'm a little late to this thread, as it seems LeeTR has read & understood the responses from others. I agree completely with TLS Guy in what he says is the source of the harsh sound – the B&W Kevlar mid range drivers and the too-high crossover frequency of 4 kHz to the tweeter.

The OP claims complete ignorance, but his hearing is pretty good, as is his description of his problem:

However, in the 6 months since I bought it, I've grown ever so slightly dissatisfied. I'm pretty sure it's the speakers that have caused this. The bass is fine but, the midrange sounds a little "brash" at higher volumes and the tweeter is disappointing (I have to turn up the treble to compensate).​

As soon as I read that, I knew it was those Kevlar mid range drivers. That "brash" sound (good term for it) isn't always there. It depends on the music content and how loud you've got it.

Good luck with your dealer. Depending on where you're located, those B&W CM9 speakers may be easy to sell on the used market. B&W speakers are well advertised and widely recognized.

 

[LeeTR]

If I ever did decide to change speakers, would the CM10s solve my "problem", or should I ignore B & W altogether?

 

[TLS Guy]

If I ever did decide to change speakers, would the CM10s solve my "problem", or should I ignore B & W altogether?

No it will not solve it. You will have exactly the same issue.

If you want B & W you will have to move up to their NEW 800 D3 range.

The 800 D3, the 802 D3 and the 803 D3 for the first time for B & W do not use a Kevlar cone for the mid range. This is a totally new driver and preliminary reports are most encouraging.

I never have been keen on Kevlar as a material for a loudspeaker cone.

The problem is that moving up to the 800 range will cost you are lot more money.

What speakers does your dealer have to sell you?

 

[Swerd]

If I ever did decide to change speakers, would the CM10s solve my "problem", or should I ignore B & W altogether?

Again, I completely agree with TLS Guy. Stay away from any B&W speaker with one of those yellow Kevlar drivers. Older (used) 800 series speakers do have the Kevlar driver and seem to avoid the problem of 'brash' sound, but the CM and the 600 series all suffer from it.

As TLS Guy mentioned, the new 800 series from B&W has moved away from the yellow Kevlar drivers. I haven't heard them, but I know their price will be very high – much higher than CM10s.

I don't know your price range is, or what the CM9s cost these days. There are lots of good alternatives for floor standing speakers in the price range of $2000 to $4000 per pair.

 

[herbu]

What speakers does your dealer have to sell you?

And what is your budget? How much would you be willing to spend on a new pair of speakers?

 

[LeeTR]

The CM9s cost around £2000, or $2500 - $3000, per pair.

The local store has Dali, Wharfedale, Triangle, Quad and, of course, B&W. But I'm sure there are other stores within travelling distance.

I'd consider paying up to 50% more, ($4000 max. in total) depending on the amount I raised selling the CM9s.

 

[TLS Guy]

The CM9s cost around £2000, or $2500 - $3000, per pair.

The local store has Dali, Wharfedale, Triangle, Quad and, of course, B&W. But I'm sure there are other stores within travelling distance.

I'd consider paying up to 50% more, ($4000 max. in total) depending on the amount I raised selling the CM9s.

The only comparable speaker is the Quad but probably out of your price range. The rest will be a step down.

Your big problem is that if you sell the CM 9s yourself you will likely only get half what you paid for them

You might want to consider these speakers.

There is a way your speakers could be modified, by a redesign of the crossover. This might be your best solution. Dennis Murphy the owner/Designer of Philharmonic audio has modified some B & W 800 speakers. You might want to ask him if he has a mod for yours.

This is something I could do, but I would need the both speakers.

 

[KenM10759]

If the Dali speakers of choice were their Epicon series (or perhaps even the Rubicon 8) they'd give the CM9's a good run for the money. Zensors, no. Heck, those would probably outshine many of the Quads. The Triangle Signature Delta is pretty good too.

All would be a big jump in price, likely the same jump encountered by bumping up to B&W 804D3.

Any of those make a great case for why the Philharmonic 3 is such a grand bargain!

 

[Pogre]

I'm dying to hear the philharmonic 3. or even the philharmonitor. that one is on my want list. the 3 is just a wee bit out of my price range, but they look and spec amazing.