yamaha amps to start a vinyl collection with

[rory matthew]

hi there I really want to buy the rx v681 because of the atmos and dtx but also mainly because of the phono input as I'm about to start a vinyl collection. integrated amplifiers have a pre amp inbuilt is that correct? all i've ever heard however from other forums is that amps with the built in pre amps aren't that good and I should just buy a $50 preamp separate.

I find it hard to believe however that a high end yamaha amp would have a cheap preamp which would compromise on sound. Does anyone have any input? is the preamp on the 681 any good? thanks

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

I wouldn’t call the 681 a “high end” offering from Yamaha. The phono pre-amp might be fine, I don’t know. I’d tend to be skeptical of the pre-amps in lower- and mid-range AVRs. Not even sure I have confidence in the ones in upper-tier models. There just isn’t any incentive for a company to spend on a source component that only the smallest minority of buyers use anymore. Same with the AVR’s built-in tuners. I’m confident that none of them are as good as even the mid-line stand-alone tuners that mostly went by the wayside in the ‘90s.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[rory matthew]

Fair enough, I'm living in Australia where it costs around $1300 so thought that was pretty high range. Suppose there's always a more expensive one you can get. So you think I would be better off spending a bit less on the amp and buying a pre amp? how much would a decent one cost do you think, around $100? any recommendations? thanks

 

[TLS Guy]

I wouldn’t call the 681 a “high end” offering from Yamaha. The phono pre-amp might be fine, I don’t know. I’d tend to be skeptical of the pre-amps in lower- and mid-range AVRs. Not even sure I have confidence in the ones in upper-tier models. There just isn’t any incentive for a company to spend on a source component that only the smallest minority of buyers use anymore. Same with the AVR’s built-in tuners. I’m confident that none of them are as good as even the mid-line stand-alone tuners that mostly went by the wayside in the ‘90s.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

RIAA Eq is a very simple circuit and not rocket science. Compared to other parts of an AVR the cost of the phono input is largely the cost of the RCA socket and having room for it among all the clutter on the back.

These high cost phono pre amps, especially tube ones are audiophoolery pure and simple.

 

[rory matthew]

I see so you're saying the pre amp is a pretty simple piece of tech so even if it is stuck in the Yamaha amp it will still be pretty good (good enough)

Or are you just saying I shouldn't spend more than $100 on a separate preamp?

 

[TLS Guy]

I see so you're saying the pre amp is a pretty simple piece of tech so even if it is stuck in the Yamaha amp it will still be pretty good (good enough)

Or are you just saying I shouldn't spend more than $100 on a separate preamp?

I'm saying use the Yamaha. Usually things work out fine. The problem can come at times with a sensitivity mismatch between cartridge and phono section, in that the cartridge has too low an output for the phono section or preamp. That is why Peter Walker in the hey day of Quad made the input sensitivity adjustable.

 

[3db]

Fair enough, I'm living in Australia where it costs around $1300 so thought that was pretty high range. Suppose there's always a more expensive one you can get. So you think I would be better off spending a bit less on the amp and buying a pre amp? how much would a decent one cost do you think, around $100? any recommendations? thanks

I use the phono stage on my Yamaha RX-V1800 and it sounds amazing. Like TLS said, these phono stages have been around for a very long time and haven't changed design in 50 some years. Spending money on a high cost phono amp is analogous to buying expensive speaker cables and interconnects and expecting to hear a sound improvement. Use the Yammy.

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

RIAA Eq is a very simple circuit and not rocket science. Compared to other parts of an AVR the cost of the phono input is largely the cost of the RCA socket and having room for it among all the clutter on the back.

Like TLS said, these phono stages have been around for a very long time and haven't changed design in 50 some years.

I for one am happy to see this clarified – thanks a bunch guys!

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[rory matthew]

yep thanks alot for the help! yamaha it is then. gonna be a nice clean set up once all done

 

[MR.MAGOO]

Not trying to cause confusion, but I've read that most receivers and AVR's which include a PHONO input, that input is of the MM (moving magnet) type phono cartridge. If one wants to use an MC (moving coil) cartridge you will need a separate pre-amp which supports a MC phono cartridge.

 

[Swerd]

Not trying to cause confusion, but I've read that most receivers and AVR's which include a PHONO input, that input is of the MM (moving magnet) type phono cartridge. If one wants to use an MC (moving coil) cartridge you will need a separate pre-amp which supports a MC phono cartridge.

You are correct about that. I'd guess that most people who own turntables have MM cartidges.

In older days when LPs were essentially the only primary source of audio, nearly all phonographs were sold with a low priced MM cartridge included at an attractive low price. I remember getting my AR turntable ($79) with a Shure M91 cartridge for $20 extra. People that I knew kept what came with their turntables. In fact I don't believe I ever knew anyone who switched cartridges.

I looked at what Needle Doctor has for sale. It has 62 MM cartridges ranging in price from $15 to $2,800 , and 111 MC cartridges priced from $229 to $15,000 . By price alone, I'd guess that more MM cartridges are sold.

The sheer number of different cartridges and the very high prices of some was surprising to me – and I am surprised by very little in audio anymore. Just the same, I suspect that most cartridges sold are the lower priced MM type.

But this is audio, and I've learned to never underestimate the willingness of some to pay very high prices .

 

[highfigh]

I agree that a phono preamp should be a simple circuit, but that would only apply in an AVR, these days. It's probably on a chip and it really should be easy enough to make these with extreme consistency, but we all know someone, somewhere, has a "better, more life-affirming way". Cartridges don't sound the same, even if you compare a group of the same brand and model- I have done this comparison and it wasn't just frequency response, it was also a matter of channel balance and overall sound level. The person who bought two cartridges and turntables that prompted this evaluation was trying to compare test pressings for the album he was mastering and he wanted to make sure it met his requirements.

Also, one phono preamp may sound different from another because of component variations, so one preamp (admittedly, I'm referring to outboard units but not necessarily high-priced) will often sound better with one cartridge, but that's just a matching issue. If a phono preamp has variable load/capacitance, it's probably going to tolerate a wider range of affordable cartridges, rather than going down the rabbit hole of constantly searching for the best one.