YPAO. And speaker leveling

[Swerd]

OK I'm just concerned that Mcintosh says, a 8 ohm speaker on the 8ohm tap I'll be getting the 250w , now if that speaker is operating at 4ohm on the 8 ohm tap 400 watts. Now let's switch to the 4 ohm tap, 8 ohm on the 4 ohm tap would be approximately 125 watts, now if my RF-7's Perdominantly operate at 4 ohm 250 watts. Mcintosh strongly suggest 8 ohm taps with all impedance speakers, unless however the amp gets HOT then it's Suggested to go on the 4ohm tap.

Klipsch claims your RF-7 speakers are enormously sensitive at 101 dB (I find that difficult to believe) and are "8 ohm compatible". I'm not at all sure what "8 ohms compatible" means. Is that what their engineers said or is that what their marketing people said?

The measured impedance curve for theses speakers shows that between about 80 Hz and 600 Hz, they go below 8 ohms. And between 100 Hz and 200+ Hz they dip below 4 ohms. Observe the black trace while using the vertical scale on the left side.

So despite what Klipsch claims, these speakers are below 8 ohms over a significant frequency range. When you also consider the green trace (impedance phase angle measured in degrees on the right side), that same frequency range where the impedance dips lowest is accompanied by the largest swing in phase angle. This adds up to mean these speakers are difficult to drive over that frequency range.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Klipsch claims your RF-7 speakers are enormously sensitive at 101 dB (I find that difficult to believe) and are "8 ohm compatible". I'm not at all sure what "8 ohms compatible" means. Is that what their engineers said or is that what their marketing people said?

The measured impedance curve for theses speakers shows that between about 80 Hz and 600 Hz, they go below 8 ohms. And between 100 Hz and 200+ Hz they dip below 4 ohms. Observe the black trace while using the vertical scale on the left side.

So despite what Klipsch claims, these speakers are below 8 ohms over a significant frequency range. When you also consider the green trace (impedance phase angle measured in degrees on the right side), that same frequency range where the impedance dips lowest is accompanied by the largest swing in phase angle. This adds up to mean these speakers are difficult to drive over that frequency range.

Ok thank you. Yeah according to Mcintosh, that chart doesn't fluctuate much. Lol. So with that being said, it's clear these are not 8 ohm speakers, on the 8 ohm tap the amp should be producing much more than 250w. So I'm wondering what the advantage would be going to the 4ohm Tap? Either way you look at it less power Correct ?

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Or. Going to the 4 ohm tap means Much more current ??

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

No, unless you talk to a senior engineer you will get the wrong advice. Going to the 4 or two om settings, will double the power available where it counts, and increase the heft of the speaker, by making the current available for BSC.

I find it hard to understand why Mac persist in putting output transformers on a solid state amp. Quite honestly it is long passed the time where you had to limit current from the output devices by matching the load to stop them failing. I could may be see a point in this back in the 70s and early 80s, but it is now pointless and limiting, and was a long time ago.

I know a lot of people lust after Mac amps, but I'm certainly not one of them, far from it.

Ok. I will definitely switch to the 4 ohm tap. And rerun YPAO on Friday. I'll let u know thank you

 

[TLS Guy]

Ok what is BSC? Forgive my ignorance, So you are saying if I use the 4 ohm tap, I'll "DOUBLE" my power??

As Swerd says below, there is a point in every speaker where it transition from a half space (monopole) radiator to a full space (omnidirectional) radiator. So there is only half the power radiated in a forward direction below that step point. If you don't correct for that the speaker sounds thin and lacks body. The narrower the baffle the higher the frequency where that transition takes place. The compensation for this is called Baffle Step Compensation.

Now in a passive crossover the only way to do this is to drop the impedance in that range so the speaker draws more power from the amp.

Now the idea of the autotransformers in the Mac amps is to optimize power delivery into a given impedance. The problem is impedance in any speaker is all over the map. So the best you can do is to optimize the impedance match in the frequency range where the speaker draws the most power from the amp. That is where optimal match is essential. So that is why you need the 2 or 4 ohm tap in your Mac when driving those speakers. Most of the amps power is going to be delivered to the speaker in the 80 to 800 Hz range.

As I have said I don't like the whole concept of those autotansformers between the power transistors and the speaker. In my view there are a lot better amps out there than Macs, lots better.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

As Swerd says below, there is a point in every speaker where it transition from a half space (monopole) radiator to a full space (omnidirectional) radiator. So there is only half the power radiated in a forward direction below that step point. If you don't correct for that the speaker sounds thin and lacks body. The narrower the baffle the higher the frequency where that transition takes place. The compensation for this is called Baffle Step Compensation.

Now in a passive crossover the only way to do this is to drop the impedance in that range so the speaker draws more power from the amp.

Now the idea of the autotransformers in the Mac amps is to optimize power delivery into a given impedance. The problem is impedance in any speaker is all over the map. So the best you can do is to optimize the impedance match in the frequency range where the speaker draws the most power from the amp. That is where optimal match is essential. So that is why you need the 2 or 4 ohm tap in your Mac when driving those speakers. Most of the amps power is going to be delivered to the speaker in the 80 to 800 Hz range.

As I have said I don't like the whole concept of those autotansformers between the power transistors and the speaker. In my view there are a lot better amps out there than Macs, lots better.

Ok thank you !!

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

As Swerd says below, there is a point in every speaker where it transition from a half space (monopole) radiator to a full space (omnidirectional) radiator. So there is only half the power radiated in a forward direction below that step point. If you don't correct for that the speaker sounds thin and lacks body. The narrower the baffle the higher the frequency where that transition takes place. The compensation for this is called Baffle Step Compensation.

Now in a passive crossover the only way to do this is to drop the impedance in that range so the speaker draws more power from the amp.

Now the idea of the autotransformers in the Mac amps is to optimize power delivery into a given impedance. The problem is impedance in any speaker is all over the map. So the best you can do is to optimize the impedance match in the frequency range where the speaker draws the most power from the amp. That is where optimal match is essential. So that is why you need the 2 or 4 ohm tap in your Mac when driving those speakers. Most of the amps power is going to be delivered to the speaker in the 80 to 800 Hz range.

As I have said I don't like the whole concept of those autotansformers between the power transistors and the speaker. In my view there are a lot better amps out there than Macs, lots better.

Now I have a YAMAHA. MX-1. In absolute mint condition . And I love it. Do you think I'd be better off with that ??

 

[mtrycrafts]

OK I'm just concerned that Mcintosh says, a 8 ohm speaker on the 8ohm tap I'll be getting the 250w , now if that speaker is operating at 4ohm on the 8 ohm tap 400 watts. Now let's switch to the 4 ohm tap, 8 ohm on the 4 ohm tap would be approximately 125 watts, now if my RF-7's Perdominantly operate at 4 ohm 250 watts. Mcintosh strongly suggest 8 ohm taps with all impedance speakers, unless however the amp gets HOT then it's Suggested to go on the 4ohm tap.

May want to see if they have a senior engineer on their staff and is willing to explain the taps and speaker nominal impedances. Tell him there is much differing opinions on line.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Ok. I did it. I switched to the 4 ohm tap, After the switch I ran YPAO. now my mains were turned up to +10 and +9 lol. Not good. So I ran again, same results. So I decided to shut the subs off before running the test , and bang perfect. Now mains are +2.5 and + 3.5. Not because of the tap switch, but because I ran the level test without subs. Much much more accurate. Now after the tap switch my mains were at +9 and 10 So I may go back to the 8ohm tap and rerun level without subs. I'll let you all know.

 

[lovinthehd]

That's interesting that YPAO (and wonder if its true for newer versions) includes the subs for level setting whereas Audyssey wouldn't; i.e. Audyssey doesn't take the subs into account in that regard, it adjusts level without the speakers' level consideration (but you start with a target of 75dB setting for gain on the sub, before starting the speaker sequence, too).

 

[PENG]

That's interesting that YPAO (and wonder if its true for newer versions) includes the subs for level setting whereas Audyssey wouldn't; i.e. Audyssey doesn't take the subs into account in that regard, it adjusts level without the speakers' level consideration (but you start with a target of 75dB setting for gain on the sub, before starting the speaker sequence, too).

Audyssey does take the sub level (the volume adjustment button) into account. So if you turn the sub volume too high, it will set the speaker levels higher to match. However, the newer Audyssey version such as XT32, will warn you and tell you to turn the sub volume down. Obviously YPAO does not do that, older/lower version Audyssey don't do that either, but they are all affected by the sub's volume (the hard physical button) position.

I believe I did mention the effect of the sub volume to the OP in his other thread (link below) last year.

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/lfe-level-on-yamaha-rx-z9.96717/

 

[lovinthehd]

Audyssey does take the sub level (the volume adjustment button) into account. So if you turn the sub volume too high, it will set the speaker levels higher to match. However, the newer Audyssey version such as XT32, will warn you and tell you to turn the sub volume down. Obviously YPAO does not do that, older/lower version Audyssey don't do that either, but they are all affected by the sub's volume (the hard physical button) position.

I believe I did mention the effect of the sub volume to the OP in his other thread (link below) last year.

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/lfe-level-on-yamaha-rx-z9.96717/

I only meant that the sub level is independently set from speaker level with Audyssey. Yes, adjusting gain on the sub would change the sub level set by Audyssey. Not my experience with Audyssey, at least with my Onkyo and Denon avrs, that the speaker levels change with changes I make on the sub's gain setting, just that the gain and sub level will track each other (and I do prefer to set my sub levels in the range -7 to -11 to allow for more post-Audyssey range).

Seems confirmed by Chris K here https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/22104618-Speaker-Trim-Levels

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Yea my Z9 automatically turns up to +9 for YPAO. And you're right you have to do the leveling without the subwoofers otherwise it's having to compensate with other speakers and makes the wrong adjustments. I guess you have to do subs by ear

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

But after I made the tap switch from 8 to 4. YPAO has to turn my mains up to 9 and 10 On the 8 ohm tap +6. Now I will go back to 8 ohm tap and run YPAO without subs.

 

[PENG]

I only meant that the sub level is independently set from speaker level with Audyssey. Yes, adjusting gain on the sub would change the sub level set by Audyssey. Not my experience with Audyssey, at least with my Onkyo and Denon avrs, that the speaker levels change with changes I make on the sub's gain setting, just that the gain and sub level will track each other (and I do prefer to set my sub levels in the range -7 to -11 to allow for more post-Audyssey range).

Seems confirmed by Chris K here https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/22104618-Speaker-Trim-Levels

You lost me.. Audyssey will set the speaker level and sub level such that once done, they, including the sub, should all give you the same dB from you calibrated sitting position. In the link you provided, Chris actually confirmed that if you crank up the sub's volume position, and re-run Audyssey, it will raise the speaker levels to match. I guess we are not communicating right, we may actually be in agreement.

 

[lovinthehd]

You lost me.. Audyssey will set the speaker level and sub level such that once done, they, including the sub, should all give you the same dB from you calibrated sitting position. In the link you provided, Chris actually confirmed that if you crank up the sub's volume position, and re-run Audyssey, it will raise the speaker levels to match. I guess we are not communicating right, we may actually be in agreement.

So you've had Audyssey change your speaker level settings when tweaking the sub gain? Like I said, not my experience (altho I haven't really tried on the other hand with extreme settings on the sub). Here's what I was referring to what Chris K said:

The level that Audyssey sets for the subwoofer will depend on where the analog volume control is set on the subwoofer itself. There is only one correct subwoofer level setting if you are interested in listening to the same calibration they use in the studio. So, if you turn down the subwoofer volume control then Audyssey will find a higher level setting for it.

 

[PENG]

So you've had Audyssey change your speaker level settings when tweaking the sub gain? Like I said, not my experience (altho I haven't really tried on the other hand with extreme settings on the sub). Here's what I was referring to what Chris K said:

The level that Audyssey sets for the subwoofer will depend on where the analog volume control is set on the subwoofer itself. There is only one correct subwoofer level setting if you are interested in listening to the same calibration they use in the studio. So, if you turn down the subwoofer volume control then Audyssey will find a higher level setting for it.

That is true, but they do balancing acts too. Instead of increasing the sub channel level, it could achieve the same balance by decreasing the other speaker channel levels, or it may do a little of both.

 

[lovinthehd]

That is true, but they do balancing acts too. Instead of increasing the sub channel level, it could achieve the same balance by decreasing the other speaker channel levels, or it may do a little of both.

It doesn't do it within a large range then, and suspect it's simply set independently from several discussions in the past on the subject (its been my impression, not just mine but from others, it will simply max out the level one way or the other on the sub alone)....since I have some new toys arriving Monday I'll be playing with Audyssey soon so I'll let you know after I deliberately try to get them to play together. I saw another thread from someone tonight seemingly also having the tied-together results in YPAO, tho.

 

[PENG]

It doesn't do it within a large range then, and suspect it's simply set independently from several discussions in the past on the subject (its been my impression, not just mine but from others, it will simply max out the level one way or the other on the sub alone)....since I have some new toys arriving Monday I'll be playing with Audyssey soon so I'll let you know after I deliberately try to get them to play together. I saw another thread from someone tonight seemingly also having the tied-together results in YPAO, tho.

You raised an interesting point. Anyway, I first thought you said Audyssey said the sub level (channel) independent of the other speakers (channels) independently, that I disagree, and even in the link you provided, Chris said:

"@DUCLAIR: The level that Audyssey sets for the subwoofer will depend on where the analog volume control is set on the subwoofer itself. There is only one correct subwoofer level setting if you are interested in listening to the same calibration they use in the studio. So, if you turn down the subwoofer volume control then Audyssey will find a higher level setting for it. "

Now in your last post#78, you seemed to be saying Audyssey will "max out" the sub level one way or the other alone, and that I would agree even just base on common sense/logic. In my experience though, it would seem that Audyssey use some sort of algorithm such that if you turn the sub volume too high, at some point (say at or near the "max out" point), it would actually turn the levels up on the other speaker channels too. I would have no objection to that strategy and I really thought I had seen it before when I was playing with it everyday. I am just too lazy to try it again now. I cannot tell you this is the case with the older and lower XT version, as I have XT32 for almost 3 years now.

 

[herbu]

John Fickel,
I'm sorry, but it seems you're trying to calibrate YPAO instead of calibrating your speakers. The purpose is to balance all your speakers. If YPAO is setting some speakers loud, it means some other speaker is loud and YPAO is trying to balance. If one of your main speakers is not the culprit, it's your sub(s).

Rather than investigating YPAO or my amp, I would look at my speakers and sub(s). Look at speaker locations and your sub(s) gain.

You have received more technical info about YPAO and amps than you likely understand. Do you really think a mainstream consumer product like YPAO requires the level of detailed understanding explained here to operate? I don't.