Marantz AV7702 or AVR SR7009

[dpwill]

Hi, guys. I'm new to separate pre/pro and amps vs. AV receiver, so I thought I would look for some advice. First, I have been thinking long and hard about a combo of the Marantz AV7702 + Outlaw model 7125. I already have the Hsu 15h-mk2 sub with my current 7.1 system. It's pretty much a made decision on the 7125. The next decision is about Darby Atmos (and DTS:X whenever that happens, if these can be upgraded). I have been leaning toward the Outlaw model 5000 to drive the remaining (ceiling) channels, for a Marantz 7702 + Outlaw 7125 + model 5000 combo, a 7.1.4 set up. I'll get the other couple pairs speakers afterward.
Two questions. One, with the reviews the model 5000 has been getting, it almost seems a waste of a great amp,and money, just to drive ceiling speakers. What do you think?
Two, if I opt for the Marantz SR7009, and use the pre outs for the 7125, I can drive the ceiling speakers with the AVR. I'm pretty sure this would be fine as far as watching movies is concerned, and would save me a few bucks. But here's the rub. My primary reason for wanting separates is for higher fidelity music listening.
Will the mere introduction of an integrated amp, the AVR, degrade that fidelity when listening to stereo, or multichannel SACD's? In other words, when connecting through the pre outs are the AVR's internal amps still on, thus creating distortion that I'm trying to avoid, and defeating the purpose of a separate amplifier? Or will there be no discernible difference? Thanks for any advice.

 

[agarwalro]

Without knowing the exact speakers, commenting on amp capabilities is foolhardy.

Dedicated pre/pro's make sense if you already have amps in the system or if you have power hungry speakers (or if you just want bragging rights). Using a receiver's inbuilt amp (within specified limits) does nothing to degrade the sound. Rather, invest the money in better speakers, acoustical treatments, calibration, good recordings, etc. aka. things that have a much more significant impact on sound quality.

IMO, get the SR7009 and 3-ch amp to drive the FRONT speakers (L, C, R). The side/surround/height channels need relatively meager power and with the LCR offloaded, the receiver will easily dish out the necessary juice.

 

[dpwill]

Thanks for your opinion. That sounds logical to me, since the surround speakers obviously don't need too much power. For information, I have a pair of JBL L7's as main speakers, JBL LC2 center, and matching JBL 810's as surrounds, although I'm considering getting a pair of 820's as side speakers when I expand for Atmos. The 810's don't quite cut it when listening to multichannel SACD's. I'm not sure how much of that to blame also on my Denon 2808 having to push 5 channels, since watts per channel ratings diminish with extra channels. I hardly hear the back surrounds at all when watching a 7.1 movie, but again room acoustics probably has a lot to do with that. Building a dedicated home theater room is next on my wish list. I'm in the process of gathering info on that.
As I stated, I felt sure there would be enough power to drive the surrounds with the SR7009, but was concerned about the degradation of the sound quality. Hopefully, others will chime in with their opinions, but as of now your suggestion seems like a good one. My only thing is whether I can get a good 3-ch amp any better or cheaper in comparison to the Outlaw model 5000 5-ch amp, which can drive the fronts and side speakers for music listening. Does that sound reasonable?

 

[agarwalro]

The L7 have Sensitivity of 91 dB/W/m. So, a clean 100W amp will give you a conservative 107dB at 10ft. This is ear bleeding loud. Going to 200W only gets you 3dB more. IMO, not worth the extra cost. That said, the impedance curve dips to 3.2 Ohm at 80 Hz. If your crossover is set below 100Hz, the amp needs to be robust.

Two of these will trounce over any 3 ch amp in this price range,
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/cr/B003HZPKSM/

Or this one,
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00LGNFAIC/

 

[dpwill]

The Outlaw model 5000 is 120 watts per channel, "all channels driven," which i thought would be enough for the LRC and sides. The crossover is set at 80Hz. If I opted for either of the two you suggested, there are only 4 ch. How would I do that best? Also, I'm not sure how to figure the actual per channel ratings for these amps. I don't want to go too much for the center or surrounds, as they recommend no more than 150w amp. I'm trying to keep this as simple for me as possible, since I have little experience. Should I get a larger stereo amp for the L7's, and a lesser one for the center and/or sides?

 

[agarwalro]

120W is enough for the sides, not for LCR.

The L7 speaker is rated at 450W. This is not a limit on the amp power. Rather, any higher amount of power sent will either cause thermal damage to the voice coil or mechanical damage to moving bits. For a sane person, our ears will give out long before this happens to a properly designed/well made speaker.

A poorly designed/low power amps being driven to the limit is the culprit in a large majority of cases where speaker damage has occurred.

If the linked amps above look complicated, how about this one to keep things simple,
https://emotiva.com/products/amplifiers/xpa-3

 

[PENG]

Should I get a larger stereo amp for the L7's, and a lesser one for the center and/or sides?

It is better to invest more on the stereo amp and save on the rest by using a capable AVR such as the SR-7009 or AVR-X5200W. If you don't need the latest features, then the AVR-4520 offer more power (verified by bench tests), 4 ohm capable, preamp mode and generally better specs than the SR-7009, and for much less money as you can now get it for $1200 or less. The 7009 and X5200W are both going for $1999 at BB.

In my experience, going from AVR+stereo amp to Marantz separate prepro + amps has not resulted in SQ improvements and I will go back to AVR eventually. Obviously others have different experience for various reasons. The L7 can benefit from more power and a good robust amp but the 7009 and especially the 4520 should be able to power the center and surrounds with ease.

I think the importance of the center channel is overrated but that's just me. I have tried different amps and AVRs to drive my center channel, and found it was a waste of time. I have since removed my 200WPC amp for the center and just use the Marantz multichannel amp to drive it. Again, the SR-7009 will be more than enough for your LC2.

 

[dpwill]

First, as a reply to Agar, yes I saw that when I went to the Emotiva site, and was seriously considering that. That's right about where I want to be for my L7's, but the LC2 is rated the same as the rest of the surrounds, and JBL recommends no larger than 150 watt amp. I would really like to find a good 200w stereo amp and let the AVR handle the rest, as Peng is also suggesting. Emotiva has the xpa-200, which is 150w per channel, all driven. From there they go to a 300w per channel stereo amp, which is more than I really need, I think.
Outlaw also doesn't make a 200w stereo amp, so I think I will get the xpa-200 for the L7's, for now, unless somebody has a better recommendation. Eventually, however, I will be moving to an Atmos setup, and the AVR will then be driving 9 speakers for movie watching, although they will still just be satellites. I will wait until then and just see if I hear a loss of desired performance. If so, it will be easy to add an Outlaw 5000 to drive the remaining lower speakers, and leave only the ceiling ones for the AVR. Or even a 3-ch amp for the center and sides, if I can find one at 100w or so.
The good thing about using an AVR instead of pre/pro it seems is that you have so many options. With a pre/pro you have to have something in place then and there to use it.
Things are starting to get a lot clearer now. I want to thank you guys for your help with this. It really means a lot, since these are decisions that will effect my music and movie experiences for years to come.

 

[agarwalro]

Peng, the 4520 is a great suggestion. A4L has it for a mere $800! The only argument against it is that it doesn't support the matrixed formats and the OP is very keen on that feature.

 

[PENG]

Peng, the 4520 is a great suggestion. A4L has it for a mere $800! The only argument against it is that it doesn't support the matrixed formats and the OP is very keen on that feature.

Thanks, I didn't realize that. $800 for the 4520 seems unreal, must be refurbished right?

 

[agarwalro]

Crap, I meant, Object Oriented, Atmos, et al.

A4L is mostly refurb. Once in a great while they have new stuff.

 

[dpwill]

Yes, I want to be able to do the Atmos and DTS:X, when that becomes available. But I'm going to build an addition to my house as a dedicated home theater, so that's a year away minimum. By getting the stereo amp now, I can connect it to my Denon, which is struggling a bit to power all seven channels for long periods. Hopefully, when I'm ready for the 7009 they will also have dropped a bit in price. By getting the amp now, I can get use of it, and spread out the cash investment also. Thanks again, guys.

 

[dpwill]

I don't know if you guys are still paying attention to this thread, but just wanted to let you know that I have received the Emotiva xpa-200 and hooked it up last night. WOW! That was absolutely a great buy. I can actually hear all the music again! My L7's used to sound great in my old house, but when we moved into our new house, the bass just wasn't as ass-kicking as it used to be. I was convinced it was because of the acoustics,since we now have 12' tray ceilings and the living room opens on one side to a great room. Yeah, lousy.
But what I neglected to take into account is that I bought myself a Denon 2808 surround receiver at the same time to for watching surround movies. That was the real culprit. It just didn't have the power, even when just listening to music in stereo. I use to run a 25 year old Pioneer. Well, that old Pioneer kicks the Denon's ass. It's not Denon's fault, though. I should have known better. The Pioneer is rated way more watts, and I just didn't know enough to realize how much difference it would make. When I got the Pioneer, the only multi-channel was stereo, vs. mono,lol!
Anyway, I got my L7's back!! The first thing I did was pop in Miles Davis, Kind of Blue. Listening to All Blues I could here all the back up instruments so clearly behind each soloist, first Miles,then Coltrane, "Cannonball" Adderley, Evans, with Chambers' great bass work throughout. Add in Cobbs' drums, and I was in heaven. Next I went a different direction, and cranked up Elton John's SACD Captain Fantastic and the Brown Dirt Cowboy. Even the surrounds all sounded better by getting the Denon's full attention. I could kick myself in the ass for going these few years not knowing about pre-outs and separate amps, or how much power is really needed to drive speakers like the L7's in order to bring out what they are truly capable of, but at least the future will be filled with great music again!

 

[PENG]

Anyway, I got my L7's back!! The first thing I did was pop in Miles Davis, Kind of Blue. Listening to All Blues I could here all the back up instruments so clearly behind each soloist, first Miles,then Coltrane, "Cannonball" Adderley, Evans, with Chambers' great bass work throughout. Add in Cobbs' drums, and I was in heaven. Next I went a different direction, and cranked up Elton John's SACD Captain Fantastic and the Brown Dirt Cowboy. Even the surrounds all sounded better by getting the Denon's full attention. I could kick myself in the ass for going these few years not knowing about pre-outs and separate amps, or how much power is really needed to drive speakers like the L7's in order to bring out what they are truly capable of, but at least the future will be filled with great music again!

Thanks for the feedback, I am not going to say I told you so but I did expect noticeable improvements by giving your L7s more juice. You did the wise thing by spending more on the front two large speakers instead of spreading out to all 7 speakers. At least now you can enjoy great two channel stereo and your movie experience should still be great as the Denon now has fewer and smaller mouths to feed. A good sub will help the Denon even more as you can set the XO to 80 Hz or even higher.

 

[dpwill]

Hey, guys. I have another question for you. As I said, the xpa-200 (150wpc) sounds great. But Emotiva now has the xpa-2 300 wpc amp on sale. Other than being louder, which isn't an issue, would having a larger amp give any other benefits? I still have time to return the 200 and exchange it. These amps are in the same class, other than wattage, but I was curious of any sonic improvements at higher volumes by not having to push the amp as much. Again, the 150wpc amp seems loud enough, just wondering if the woofer might need more juice at higher levels. I didn't realize the difference this amp would make until I actually heard it, so now it has me wondering if there would also be an improvement that I don't know about unless I heard the 300 wpc amp.
By the way, Peng, I do have a good sub, which is great for movies and surround SACD's, but it doesn't usually come on in Direct mode for stereo cd's. It doesn't need to now, really, the 12" woofers are pretty good on the L7's.

 

[agarwalro]

The increased headroom with an XPA-2 is not worth double the cost. You will most likely not get any audible improvement. Refer back to my previous post on amp power (#4). For peace of mind, order it and send the loser back. IMHO, just a waste of money.

 

[Sipos88]

Hey guys. Im in the same situation, but a year later.
I have the Klipsch rp280f, rp-450c and rp250s and 2 rw-12d subs..
Xpa-5 and upa-2 amps

Im planning on getting a preamp because its more capable of running an amp do to more voltage at the XLR output.
I was debating with the idea of the x4200, 7009, but then i learned some about pre-pro's.. 7702 and dhc 80.3..

I heard that the 7702 might have a humming noise with high gain amps(32db mine gen 1) and high sensitivity speakers(98db mine)

What do you guys believe i should do?
Also, i would like atmos down the road... Rp250s it might mot be the best idea to keep.. Right?
Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[PENG]

Hey guys. Im in the same situation, but a year later.
I have the Klipsch rp280f, rp-450c and rp250s and 2 rw-12d subs..
Xpa-5 and upa-2 amps

Im planning on getting a preamp because its more capable of running an amp do to more voltage at the XLR output.
I was debating with the idea of the x4200, 7009, but then i learned some about pre-pro's.. 7702 and dhc 80.3..

I heard that the 7702 might have a humming noise with high gain amps(32db mine gen 1) and high sensitivity speakers(98db mine)

What do you guys believe i should do?
Also, i would like atmos down the road... Rp250s it might mot be the best idea to keep.. Right?
Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you already have the amps, unless you plan on running more than 9 channels, you are better off getting a prepro. Otherwise, get an AVR-X6200W or SR-7010 and sell those amps.