LSA 1 Monitors?

[speakerman39]

http://salksound.com/caow1 - home.htm

Fuzz, I found this page. Just looking for more info on the CAOW1. These look very interesting to me and have my full attention. Thanks for the link.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

the Reference Monitor's with a dome tweeter, not the Signature series. sorry I don't remember the sales person mentioning which version they were. I would assume I was listening to whatever the latest version was in production in 2013.

I see. It is the Signature and/or the Statement versions that I am more interested in. Thanks for the info. It is most appreciated.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

Contact Dennis @Philharmonic Audio and see if he'll make you a pair of the Alesis speakers. I believe they sound very similar to the Sierra 2 for around $800. If available I wouldn't even look elsewhere in that budget.

I have never even heard of the Alexis. Will be sure to look into it. Have already been talking o Dennis. Thanks for the info.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[fuzz092888]

I have never even heard of the Alexis. Will be sure to look into it. Have already been talking o Dennis. Thanks for the info.

Cheers,

Phil

I don't think Dennis builds those anymore. He may be able to import a pair though.

 

[speakerman39]

As far as I know, the CAOWI & SongSurround I are both 8 ohm speakers. Both speakers use the same drivers (all 3 are 8 ohm) and the same sized cabinets:

Seas CA15RLY 5½" Coated Paper Woofer

or​

Seas ER15RLY 5½" Reed Paper Woofer

and the​

Hiquphon OW I ¾" Silk Dome Tweeter​

The CAOWI crossover has 2nd order (12 dB/octave) slopes, and the SongSurroundI has 4th order (24 dB/octave) slopes. I have the CAOWI which I built, and I also have the SongTowers & SongCenter which also have 4th order crossovers. I can't tell the difference in the two crossover types. Dennis Murphy says he can, and I don't doubt him.

Both CAOWI and SSI can be ordered with either the CA15 or ER15 woofers. (Jim Salk probably keeps the ER15s in stock and might have to order the CA15s.) They sound very similar, and again I don't think I can tell the difference. My older SongTowers have the CA15s and my newer SongCenter has the ER15s. There is little if any difference I can hear.

What are CAOW2s ? Do you mean the SongSurroundII? It's a 4 ohm MTM speaker with the two woofers wired in parallel.

CAOW2.......LOL!!!! I meant SongSurround 2's. As such, I can see that the mids are wired in parallel. Thus, yielding 4 ohms. Glad to hear the CAOW1's are 8 ohm speakers. These sure have my full attention and just may be what I have been looking for. Appreciate the info Richard.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

I don't think Dennis builds those anymore. He may be able to import a pair though.

I will certainly look into it. Have not even heard of the Alexis until today. Appreciate the info.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[Swerd]

How does the tweeter change the over all impedance? For example, if a 2-way speaker uses an 8 ohm mid driver, but a 4 ohm tweeter what would be the resulting overall impedance? Does the crossover design affect the impedance? I do know crossover points change as impedance change, no?

Specific examples always work better than painting with a broad brush. Here is an impedance curve (in red) of a Salk SongTower http://www.salksound.com/songtower specifications.htm. When this trace was done, it had two 8 ohm CA15 woofers and one 8 ohm Hiquphon OWII tweeter:

You can see the effect of the two 8 ohm woofers wired in parallel with the 4 ohm minimum in 200-300 Hz range. Their impedance gradually rises as the frequency increases. The crossover frequency is about 2.5 kHz, and you can see the effect of the tweeter & crossover even below 1 kHz. Above 3 kHz, the tweeter's impedance levels off at around 6 or 7 ohms and climbs slowly higher as frequency rises.

To directly answer your question, yes you can use woofer(s) and tweeter with different impedance values. But those values vary with frequency – they are not a single constant number. That info is measured in the form of a frequency sweep and all those data points are entered into the crossover calculations.

 

[speakerman39]

Specific examples always work better than painting with a broad brush. Here is an impedance curve (in red) of a Salk SongTower http://www.salksound.com/songtower specifications.htm. When this trace was done, it had two 8 ohm CA15 woofers and one 8 ohm Hiquphon OWII tweeter:

You can see the effect of the two 8 ohm woofers wired in parallel with the 4 ohm minimum in 200-300 Hz range. Their impedance gradually rises as the frequency increases. The crossover frequency is about 2.5 kHz, and you can see the effect of the tweeter & crossover even below 1 kHz. Above 3 kHz, the tweeter's impedance levels off at around 6 or 7 ohms and climbs slowly higher as frequency rises.

To directly answer your question, yes you can use woofer(s) and tweeter with different impedance values. But those values vary with frequency – they are not a single constant number. That info is measured in the form of a frequency sweep and all those data points are entered into the crossover calculations.

I see. So, part of the crossover design is to keep impedance within a specified value, no? In other words, keep the impedance from being to low more or less, right? From what I have read on that, tweeters usually don't change the over all impedance too much anyways. It is more of what the mid is rated for that has the most influence on overall impedance. At least, that is the way I understand it. As always, I could be wrong.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[Swerd]

I see. So, part of the crossover design is to keep impedance within a specified value, no? In other words, keep the impedance from being to low more or less, right? From what I have read on that, tweeters usually don't change the over all impedance too much anyways. It is more of what the mid is rated for that has the most influence on overall impedance. At least, that is the way I understand it. As always, I could be wrong.

I think that is correct. Although it is important to keep impedance in mind, it isn't usually the primary goal while designing a crossover. That would be smooth frequency response on and off axis.

From what I know, the frequency range where low impedance becomes a problem for driving woofers is well below the crossover frequency, at least in a 2-way speaker. The cabinet design, volume, & tuning and how that interacts with the woofer(s) has a greater effect. In the ST example (above) that range of 200-300 Hz is far below the range where the crossover acts.

 

[speakerman39]

I think that is correct. Although it is important to keep impedance in mind, it isn't usually the primary goal while designing a crossover. That would be smooth frequency response on and off axis.

From what I know, the frequency range where low impedance becomes a problem for driving woofers is well below the crossover frequency, at least in a 2-way speaker. The cabinet design, volume, & tuning and how that interacts with the woofer(s) has a greater effect. In the ST example (above) that range of 200-300 Hz is far below the range where the crossover acts.

Interesting to say the least. Loudspeaker design is fascinating. Wished I could do what Dennis does. That would be so cool......LOL!!!! Do you believe that components used in the crossover design that use tighter tolerances and/or hand matched really make an audible difference? Or, is that just a bunch of hogwash?

Cheers,

Phil

 

[Swerd]

Do you believe that components used in the crossover design that use tighter tolerances and/or hand matched really make an audible difference? Or, is that just a bunch of hogwash?

As long as the various components actually have the values specified in the design ±10%, the crossover will work as intended. Paying premium prices for tighter tolerances, hand matched components, or premium materials is…

 

[speakerman39]

As long as the various components actually have the values specified in the design ±10%, the crossover will work as intended. Paying premium prices for tighter tolerances, hand matched components, or premium materials is…

Right, as there are no "Magical" fixes. We can only manipulate physics so much. But, is it ever fascinating and oh so much fun!

Cheers,

Phil

 

[Swerd]

To prevent any confusion, when I avoid hogwash, I mean the following:

Inductors – Probably are the most expensive crossover component because of the high price of copper. I try to get:

• Air core inductors
• 15 or 16g wire to keep DC resistance low, if in series with a woofer or midrange driver.
• 18, 19, or 20g wire for shunt inductors
• For large inductors in a 3-way design, I use iron or steel core inductors (such as the Madisound 15g Sledgehammer series). It uses less copper wire and has a much lower DC resistance than an equivalent air core inductor.
  
• Larger than 15g wire is too expensive, too large for most cramped crossover boards, and too hard solder.
• Flat ribbon inductors may be more compact, are said to have lower hysterisis (an electrical property that may or may not result in an audible difference), but they are very expensive and also hard to solder.

Capacitors

• Metalized polypropylene (MPP) caps, the least expensive available, such as Bennic (Madisound) or Dayton (Parts Express). If I can't find a cap in the size I need, I try Solen.
• DC Voltage ratings of 100-250 are good enough for speaker crossovers. Higher is not better. Don't pay extra just for that.
  
• Most Dayton or Bennic MPP caps that claim ±5% tolerance have measured exactly as printed on the label. I don’t pay extra for the caps with ±1% tolerance.
• I don't buy non-polarized electrolytic (NPE) caps for new crossovers. They cost less than MPP caps, but are often made with such poor tolerances that I might need to buy 10-20 caps just to find two that measure as needed.
• More expensive caps made with premium or unidentified materials perform no better than MPP caps. Much nonsense is claimed about the sound of different types of capacitors. Don’t go there, it’s Pure Hogwash.

Resistors

• Madisound sells resistors rated for 10 watts as low as 50¢. They have color coded stripes that indicates their resistance value. I find that code hard to remember, so I usually write the value on them with a sharpie pen.
  
• Parts Express sells sand-cast wire-wound “non-inductive” 10 watt resistors for $1.38. They actually print the resistance value on them. I’ll gladly pay that.
  
• Mills, a “premium” brand, sells resistors for over $4. I don’t buy them, more Hogwash.

Dennis Murphy is well aware of this, as he taught me most of it. He may buy different types for commercial use because customers demand it (right or wrong), or he may get better prices by buying large quantities. But if you ask him what he recommends, it won't be much different than what I spelled out.

 

[speakerman39]

To prevent any confusion, when I avoid hogwash, I mean the following.

Inductors – They probably are the most expensive crossover component because of the high price of copper. I try to get:

• Air core inductors
• 15 or 16g wire to keep DC resistance low, if in series with a woofer or midrange driver.
• 18, 19, or 20g wire for shunt inductors
• Iron or steel core inductor for a large inductor in a 3-way design (such as the Madisound 15g Sledgehammer series). It uses less copper wire and has a much lower DC resistance.
• Larger than 15g is too expensive, too large for most cramped crossover boards, and too hard solder. Flat ribbon inductors may be more compact, are said to have better electrical performance, but they are very expensive and hard to solder.

Capacitors

• Metalized polypropylene (MPP) caps, the least expensive available, such as Bennic (Madisound) or Dayton (Parts Express). If they don’t sell a cap in the size I need, I try Solen.
• DC Voltage ratings of 100-250 are good enough for speaker crossovers. Higher is not better.
• Most MPP caps that have ±5% tolerance have measured exactly as printed on the label. Therefore I don’t pay extra for the caps with ±1% tolerance.
• I avoid non-polarized electrolytic (NPE) caps. They cost less than MPP caps, but they are often made with such poor tolerances that I might need to buy 10-20 caps just to find two that measure correctly.
• More expensive caps made with premium or unidentified materials perform no better than MPP caps. Much nonsense is claimed about the sound of different types of capacitors. Don’t go there, it’s Pure hogwash.

Resistors

• Madisound sells 10 watt resistors for as low as 50¢.
• Parts Express sells sand-cast wire-wound “non-inductive” 10 watt resistors for $1.38. They actually print the resistance value on them. The cheaper ones have a color coded stripes that I often can’t remember. I’ll pay $1.38 for the printed resistors. To be honest, a sharpie pen works on the cheaper resistors.
  
• Mills, a “premium” brand, sells resistors for over $4. I don’t buy them, more hogwash.

Dennis Murphy is well aware of this, as he taught me most of it. He may buy different types for commercial use because customers demand it (right or wrong), or he may get better prices by buying large quantities. But if you ask him what he recommends, it won't be much different than what I spelled out.

This is good to know. Especially, for the DIY folks. I find it also useful when considering what speaker brands to buy. That is the good thing about this hobby as there is always something more to learn. Thanks for the info Richard.

Cheers,

Phil