New guy here...plenty of questions!

K

kb2wji

Enthusiast
I surfed around at a few different audio / video forums and felt like this one was where I should be.

Little about me... I grew up in NY but moved to TN 8 years ago. I purchased a house 7 years ago but i'm making a move. I'm having a house built so I have some options for a decent theater.

Currently I have 5.1 surround on a 61" DLP television. I have an Onkyo receiver and Polk towers / center channel. My current house wont allow me to have rear speakers unfortunately.

In the new house I'm doing two things. On the main level (living room / dining room / kitchen) i'm doing in ceiling 8" Polk speakers. There will also be a pair of in ceiling speakers out on the enclosed porch. Four speakers total inside, and 2 outside. They'll be wired to a Marantz 5004 amp with a Monster speaker selector. Essentially I want music to be on the whole main level so I don't have to crank it on one side of the house to hear it on the other. Doesn't have to be real high end, but the sound needs to be decent. Any opinions / better options are invited!

Downstairs is the TV room. My Polk RT800 towers will remain as will the Polk center / sub. Here's where most of my questions come in... I think 7.1 is the way to go. In my head i'm picturing in wall speakers for the "middle surround" speakers (or whatever you call those) and then some in ceiling speakers just behind my head for the rear surrounds. I would do all 4 of those surround speakers as in wall but think the ceilings are just hidden better. I want to avoid bookshelf / tower / stand speakers for my surrounds just to keep things "clean". My Onkyo TSXR600 receiver will likely have to be replaced. (It's nice, but old and outdated).

Am I way off base or on the right track? Fire away!
Thanks in advance!
Andrew
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
I'm not a huge fan of Polk, but if you like them then to each his own. What's your budget for these? Perhaps other options could be provided?

For the downstairs system, I would avoid in ceiling for any of the speakers if you want it to be a real TV/HT room.

Again, suggestions are pointless without a budget. Let us know what that is and you'll get a ton of suggestions.

What are you using for a sub? Odds are you're going to hear a lot of "skip the rear surrounds and get a real sub" if it's a Polk sub.
 
K

kb2wji

Enthusiast
Thanks for the reply! Yeah I guess a budget would help. I'm looking at about $150 per ceiling speaker upstairs for music only. The 8" Polks seem like they have decent reviews. I can also get my hands on some 6.5" Klipsch ceiling speakers for half the price. I just figured that the extra size with the polk would give me a little broader range since I wont be using a sub (again, the whole point upstairs is stealth).

Downstairs, should I be looking at doing all of the surrounds as in-wall speakers instead? Stealth is important...I know the bookshelf / stand mount speakers would blow them away, but i'm willing to make the sacrifice in sound for stealth. Do in-wall trump in-ceilings in general? Busted, I'll be using a polk 10" sub downstairs. :) Sounds like I should just set fire to it and cry myself to sleep :)
 
K

kb2wji

Enthusiast
Wow those look pretty sweet. What are your thoughts in general for ceiling speakers 6.5" vs. 8". The links you provided, can you compare those in ceiling speakers to the Klipsch r 1650 c? I can get the Klipsch's for a steal right now ($80/pair).

I think you're right....in wall speakers for the surround sound instead of the ceiling speakers.

You have 4 18" subs??? My homeowners association would deport me!

EDIT: I think my main question would be what is your opinion on the HTD 6.5" R65/R65AIM vs. the Klipsch r1650's? Also, what is your opinion on those new construction brackets? It doesn't seem necessary. Do they serve a purpose i'm not aware of?
 
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fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Wow those look pretty sweet. What are your thoughts in general for ceiling speakers 6.5" vs. 8".
In general, the general thought is that the 8" will get you a little deeper bass extension, while the 6.5" will probably net you a little tighter midrange. 8" might give you a touch more SPL, but at the cost of possibly a touch more distortion. It's all about tradeoffs.

The links you provided, can you compare those in ceiling speakers to the Klipsch r 1650 c? I can get the Klipsch's for a steal right now ($80/pair).
I don't have any direct experience with either pair of in ceiling speakers. My thoughts, as unscientific as they are, are that I'm not a huge fan of the direction the Klipsch is taking their speakers. Also, Klipsch is a big company with a lot of overhead. HTD is selling direct. My thought is you're getting more speaker for your money. Mostly what comes to mind are some of the Klipsch speakers I've heard at places like BB. I'm not sure I've those in ceiling specifically, but largely I've been unimpressed.

I think you're right....in wall speakers for the surround sound instead of the ceiling speakers.
I think you'll be happy with that decision.

You have 4 18" subs??? My homeowners association would deport me!
Plus a 21" on the way soon.

EDIT: I think my main question would be what is your opinion on the HTD 6.5" R65/R65AIM vs. the Klipsch r1650's? Also, what is your opinion on those new construction brackets? It doesn't seem necessary. Do they serve a purpose i'm not aware of?
Those brackets are just to make installation easier if you haven't already installed drywall. I don't know how you plan on running speaker wire to all these speakers, but if you plan on removing a lot of drywall, the brackets couldn't hurt. It just simplifies things and pre-locates the speakers so you know exactly where to cut holes in the drywall and don't end up with a hack and patch job.
 
K

kb2wji

Enthusiast
Awesome, thanks so much! I see what you mean about the pre-construction mounts. I can mount them when the house is framed and get them in identical locations on each wall.

Sounds like the HTD's are the way to go. The prices are considerably less than what I see in stores so I was skeptical. (You don't always get what you pay for, but you NEVER get what you don't pay for...that sorta thing). Wish I could hear them, but so long as there are folks who have good things to say about them, i'm in.

Couple more questions for you then...

In general, would you say it's better for me to have my 6 ceiling speakers be 8", or to have 6.5" and add a small sub. I have an 8" powered Onkyo sub (yeah, weird, I don't even remember where it came from...possibly from my R805 bookshelf Onkyo system). I'm not looking for huge sound...just good sound in the whole main level at one time at a reasonable background volume.

Also, is my Marantz 5004 amp adequate to run 6 speakers through a speaker selector? My Monster speaker selector has an impedence protection thingy but I don't know if I would trust it completely. If I run all 3 pairs of speakers at one time will I turn my amp to dust?

Thanks again for all your help ! ! !

EDIT: forgot one question... What are your thoughts on HDMI switching in a receiver? My Onkyo 5.1 will be replaced and i'd like to make use of the HDMI switching in a new receiver to keep the wires a little cleaner. Will I have a lot of loss?
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
My main gripe about ceiling speakers is that they fire directly down towards the floor. Wall speakers at least have a chance of spreading their sound around the room.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Awesome, thanks so much! I see what you mean about the pre-construction mounts. I can mount them when the house is framed and get them in identical locations on each wall.

Sounds like the HTD's are the way to go. The prices are considerably less than what I see in stores so I was skeptical. (You don't always get what you pay for, but you NEVER get what you don't pay for...that sorta thing). Wish I could hear them, but so long as there are folks who have good things to say about them, i'm in.

Couple more questions for you then...
They're good speakers. I think you'll be happy with them.

In general, would you say it's better for me to have my 6 ceiling speakers be 8", or to have 6.5" and add a small sub. I have an 8" powered Onkyo sub (yeah, weird, I don't even remember where it came from...possibly from my R805 bookshelf Onkyo system). I'm not looking for huge sound...just good sound in the whole main level at one time at a reasonable background volume.
I would probably go with the 6.5" and then hide a few of these around. Since you're spanning such a large area with your in ceiling, you'll probably want at least two of these in different parts of the house. Living room and dining room or close to the kitchen. That's just me though.

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1000l-10-100-watt-low-profile-powered-subwoofer--300-639

Easily hidden under furniture or upright close to a wall.

Also, is my Marantz 5004 amp adequate to run 6 speakers through a speaker selector? My Monster speaker selector has an impedence protection thingy but I don't know if I would trust it completely. If I run all 3 pairs of speakers at one time will I turn my amp to dust?

Thanks again for all your help ! ! !
2 issues that I can see. The first is that the amp section isn't all that robust at 35w and you're looking at some long runs that it'll have to power. It does have an A system B system for 4 speakers, but you have to be careful with, like you said, impedance and how things are wired. That's the second issue, if you want to play music to all 3 pairs of speakers but want different volumes at each location, how are you going to accomplish that?

I would skip the Monster, get one of these
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RUSSOUND-SDB-4-1-4-PAIR-SPEAKER-SELECTOR-DUAL-SOURCE-excellent-/252290977836?hash=item3abdb6d02c:g:uv8AAOSwFNZWxOiv
It will allow you to select which speakers you want to play, you'll never have to worry about impedance issues and you can independently control volume to each pair of speakers without making things overly complicated.

EDIT: forgot one question... What are your thoughts on HDMI switching in a receiver? My Onkyo 5.1 will be replaced and i'd like to make use of the HDMI switching in a new receiver to keep the wires a little cleaner. Will I have a lot of loss?
I'm not sure what you mean. You mean switching between sources? Or are you talking about long HDMI runs (over 15ft)?
 
K

kb2wji

Enthusiast
I actually wouldn't be too concerned with adjusting volume of each pair independently. The two pairs in the main living area would always be the same volume. It's not that big of a room. The 3rd pair outside on the deck would need to be switched on/off independently of the two pair inside. I think the speaker selector I have would do that no problem. My concern was with running all 3 pairs at one time. I didn't know if I would hurt anything.

As far as HDMI switching, I'm just talking about running one HDMI to the tv, then plugging the bluray, xbox, cable box into the AVR. Then using the AVR to select the component I want to view and having it send the signal to the tv over the one hdmi to the tv. I'll be running the cables through the wall pre-construction so I figure if I could run one HDMI, the AVR would allow me to plug whatever else I wanted into the system without having to run more wires in-wall.

MarkW: I don't know if I follow. Are the speaker designs that much different? I thought they were the same basic speaker just with different mounting hardware. If a ceiling speaker fires directly at the floor, wouldn't a wall speaker just fire directly at the opposite wall? I'm sure theres something i'm missing with the design differences... Maybe the larger "opening" over the ceiling compared to the small area between the studs in the wall?

That tiny sub is great! I think with some 6.5" ceiling speakers that sub would round it out pretty nicely. Again, the ceiling speakers in the main living area aren't for neighbor-hating sound...just music to listen to while I'm eating dinner / sitting in the living room. The volume will be downstairs :)
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
I actually wouldn't be too concerned with adjusting volume of each pair independently. The two pairs in the main living area would always be the same volume. It's not that big of a room. The 3rd pair outside on the deck would need to be switched on/off independently of the two pair inside. I think the speaker selector I have would do that no problem. My concern was with running all 3 pairs at one time. I didn't know if I would hurt anything.
I don't know of any Monster speaker selector that will also allow you to change the volume of each pair like the Russound.

As far as HDMI switching, I'm just talking about running one HDMI to the tv, then plugging the bluray, xbox, cable box into the AVR. Then using the AVR to select the component I want to view and having it send the signal to the tv over the one hdmi to the tv. I'll be running the cables through the wall pre-construction so I figure if I could run one HDMI, the AVR would allow me to plug whatever else I wanted into the system without having to run more wires in-wall.
Yup, AVR's do that. Just make sure all the cabling you use is in wall rated, including the HDMI. Also, you'll need an active HDMI cable from the AVR to the TV if the run is anymore than like 15-20 ft.

MarkW: I don't know if I follow. Are the speaker designs that much different? I thought they were the same basic speaker just with different mounting hardware. If a ceiling speaker fires directly at the floor, wouldn't a wall speaker just fire directly at the opposite wall? I'm sure theres something i'm missing with the design differences... Maybe the larger "opening" over the ceiling compared to the small area between the studs in the wall?
In general, in ceiling is worse than in wall which is worse than bookshelf or floorstanding speakers. In ceiling is fine for background music, but in terms of stereo imaging, soundstage, and often overall sound quality, they're not good for anything except general background music or sound distribution.

For instance, when I'm listening to music that was recorded live. I want it to sound like it was recorded. With the singer usually centered between the speakers and all the other instruments where they're supposed to be in relation to the recording mic(s). This is nearly impossible for in ceiling speakers to do because all the sound is coming from above your head.

Futhermore sound comes from the speaker conically and then reflections off of walls, floors and ceilings are added to to the sound that reaches your ear. When the speaker is coming from above, it's like a showerhead coming down. For an in wall or bookshelf, the sound dispersion will be wider in terms of the floor area it will hit compared to many in ceilings, especially because in ceiling speakers are limited by how high the ceiling is.

That tiny sub is great! I think with some 6.5" ceiling speakers that sub would round it out pretty nicely. Again, the ceiling speakers in the main living area aren't for neighbor-hating sound...just music to listen to while I'm eating dinner / sitting in the living room. The volume will be downstairs :)
Yup, I think jgarcia bought one of those subs for his son or daughter and was impressed by it. Not a bad little sub.
 
L

Latent

Full Audioholic
My 30" one year old gets to higher SPL than your sub will! But he operates at the higher end and won't give as good a low end response.
 
K

kb2wji

Enthusiast
Fuzz, the HDMI runs will be 6ft or less so hopefully it wont be a problem.

Latent, excuse my ignorance, but a 30" what? And whats an SPL? o_O
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Fuzz, the HDMI runs will be 6ft or less so hopefully it wont be a problem.

Latent, excuse my ignorance, but a 30" what? And whats an SPL? o_O
At 6ft, there's zero issue.

He was joking with me. I mentioned a 21" subwoofer, and agar joked about me having a kid and latent was referencing his kid. SPL stands for sound pressure level. It's how loudness is measured.
 
K

kb2wji

Enthusiast
Ahhh gotcha. I worked at Circuit City from '97 till '01....Back then Dolby Pro Logic II was the cats meow. I knew my stuff back then. Now i'm lost. So much has changed. You could have said the XBT's were causing the LP3's to interfere with the XYZ's and I'd just nod my head and buy different cables or something :D Add that to the fact that I already know i'm doing it all wrong (ceiling / wall speakers?!?) and this forum may just evict me.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Ahhh gotcha. I worked at Circuit City from '97 till '01....Back then Dolby Pro Logic II was the cats meow. I knew my stuff back then. Now i'm lost. So much has changed. You could have said the XBT's were causing the LP3's to interfere with the XYZ's and I'd just nod my head and buy different cables or something :D Add that to the fact that I already know i'm doing it all wrong (ceiling / wall speakers?!?) and this forum may just evict me.
LOL, it's no big deal. Do something else for a couple days and you'll come back and have missed the newest 37 things. The technology is changing so quickly, new companies are always cropping up, especially in the ID world, and there's always a new gadget or fiasco going on with some company. It's impossible to keep up.

Nothing wrong with in ceiling or in wall speakers. You gotta get what fits best in your own home. There are still some great speakers to be had in those categories, but it's the same as any normal box speakers. You gots to pay to play. The difference is, you can break into some great quality speakers at a much lower price point for normal box speakers than for in ceiling/wall.

You could get back into it. Didn't you hear? CC is making a comeback :p
 

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