Bought home wired for sound

[kandrc]

I just bought a home that is wired for sound. The home was built in 1992. The speakers were put in new while building. There are 10 speakers. Some of them are paired, but others are singles, and one room has three (?) speakers. There are no external markings on them, and I can't get them out of the walls to read any specs that may be printed on the boxes. The boxes range in size from about 10 inches diagonally to about 16 inches diagonally. There are no volume controls anywhere. All of the speakers are wired with 12 gauge home runs. The sellers were the original builders, but they're able to tell me nothing about the speakers except that they literally never used them. The house is well appointed, so I expect that these are reasonably high quality devices.

I've been doing some reading to try to figure out what equipment I need to drive the sound system, but the more I read, the less confident I become in my needs. Here's what I would like to be able to do:

* Control the volume level of each speaker separately.
* Individually switch speakers between (at least) two simultaneous audio sources
* Play AM/FM/maybe satellite radio
* Play CDs
* Stream network audio

Given the reading I've done, I have some idea of what I need to do this:

* A receiver with network capability (ethernet is fine; no wifi necessary, as the home runs terminate at the same place where the network switch is installed)
* A speaker selector with volume control, a/b switching, and impedance matching
* An amplifier
* A multi CD changer (I guess I'm getting old, because there aren't many of these on the market anymore!)

I'm mostly confused about the amp and the selector. I'm not sure how to choose them, how to ensure that I don't fry or otherwise damage anything, etc. Do I need 2 amps, since I want the a/b functionality? Do I need a pre-amp? Can I drive 1 speaker where the selector expects a pair (thus use a ten speaker selector)? With respect to the receiver, most of what's on the market actually seems to be designed for theater systems, with HDMI and other video stuff that I don't need; do I have to get it anyway? Do I need two receivers for my a/b control, or are there products available that can do two sources at the same time?

I'm looking to spend no more than about $1000, and I'd like to keep it under $500 if I can get reasonable quality equipment. I don't think that the acoustics of the home merit high-end products, but at the same time, I am ethically opposed to purchasing garbage.

Any advice will be welcome.

 

[TheWarrior]

I just bought a home that is wired for sound. The home was built in 1992. The speakers were put in new while building. There are 10 speakers. Some of them are paired, but others are singles, and one room has three (?) speakers. There are no external markings on them, and I can't get them out of the walls to read any specs that may be printed on the boxes. The boxes range in size from about 10 inches diagonally to about 16 inches diagonally. There are no volume controls anywhere. All of the speakers are wired with 12 gauge home runs. The sellers were the original builders, but they're able to tell me nothing about the speakers except that they literally never used them. The house is well appointed, so I expect that these are reasonably high quality devices.

I've been doing some reading to try to figure out what equipment I need to drive the sound system, but the more I read, the less confident I become in my needs. Here's what I would like to be able to do:

* Control the volume level of each speaker separately.
* Individually switch speakers between (at least) two simultaneous audio sources
* Play AM/FM/maybe satellite radio
* Play CDs
* Stream network audio

Given the reading I've done, I have some idea of what I need to do this:

* A receiver with network capability (ethernet is fine; no wifi necessary, as the home runs terminate at the same place where the network switch is installed)
* A speaker selector with volume control, a/b switching, and impedance matching
* An amplifier
* A multi CD changer (I guess I'm getting old, because there aren't many of these on the market anymore!)

I'm mostly confused about the amp and the selector. I'm not sure how to choose them, how to ensure that I don't fry or otherwise damage anything, etc. Do I need 2 amps, since I want the a/b functionality? Do I need a pre-amp? Can I drive 1 speaker where the selector expects a pair (thus use a ten speaker selector)? With respect to the receiver, most of what's on the market actually seems to be designed for theater systems, with HDMI and other video stuff that I don't need; do I have to get it anyway? Do I need two receivers for my a/b control, or are there products available that can do two sources at the same time?

I'm looking to spend no more than about $1000, and I'd like to keep it under $500 if I can get reasonable quality equipment. I don't think that the acoustics of the home merit high-end products, but at the same time, I am ethically opposed to purchasing garbage.

Any advice will be welcome.

Let's go ahead and assume you are NOT wired for sound!

The good news is you've got speakers. The bad new is you will need to pull them all out and figure out what is connected to what and where. And likely most, if not everything, will need to be rewired to allow for volume controls, etc.

Next you need to plan how YOU want the system to work. What rooms will play what, etc. If home theater is to be added as well, that can also change your needs.

There's a ton of money to be saved if you are capable of understanding basic electrical safety, and wiring. Your reading comprehension also appears to be adequate, given your list of components. (you are not first to come with this problem)

Or, hire someone strictly to evaluate the system, and then get bids on getting it all connected to your specification!

 

[kandrc]

Let's go ahead and assume you are NOT wired for sound!

I don't think that's a reasonable assumption. There are exactly 10 speekers, and there are exactly 10 wires at the termination location. Under the assumption that the speakers are correctly wired, I can map the runs simply by testing them individually with my little Walmart am/fm/cd player (if I ever find the box it's in). Volume controlls in the rooms would be nice, but more trouble than its worth to me, so I'm fine controlling them all at the termination point.

And I would guess that the front plates on the speaker boxes come off if I get a bit more aggressive about it, but for now, I assume they all work based on the quality of appointments and level of maintenence of the house, so I don't want to do anything that starts with a screwdriver and end with painting if I don't have to. Regardless, I put myself through college doing industrial electrical work, so I'm not afraid of wires or getting dirty.

I'm not concerned with home theater, only music.

 

[highfigh]

I don't think that's a reasonable assumption. There are exactly 10 speekers, and there are exactly 10 wires at the termination location. Under the assumption that the speakers are correctly wired, I can map the runs simply by testing them individually with my little Walmart am/fm/cd player (if I ever find the box it's in). Volume controlls in the rooms would be nice, but more trouble than its worth to me, so I'm fine controlling them all at the termination point.

And I would guess that the front plates on the speaker boxes come off if I get a bit more aggressive about it, but for now, I assume they all work based on the quality of appointments and level of maintenence of the house, so I don't want to do anything that starts with a screwdriver and end with painting if I don't have to. Regardless, I put myself through college doing industrial electrical work, so I'm not afraid of wires or getting dirty.

I'm not concerned with home theater, only music.

You shouldn't need to remove any speakers at first but you may, later. It would be good if you have a multi-meter, to test for resistance and have some way to make labels for the wires (the fact that they weren't labeled tells me the builder may have included them as part of the package but not marking them in inexcusable). If you don't have a multi-meter and you have any kind of hardware store near your house, buy a cheap one- absolute accuracy isn't needed, but you need to make sure none of the wires is shorted or open. If you can have a helper, the next part will be easy.

You'll need a few things for identifying the wires- paper to make a list a multi-meter and a AA battery and the house needs to be very quiet.

- Make a list of the speaker wires, with a place for a number, resistance and location.
- Connect one of the wires to either end of the battery, then repeatedly touch the other end to the other end- you should hear a scratchy popping sound. Have your helper go to a place near the middle of the speakers, to listen for this noise and call out which room or area the sound came from. Mark the wire with a number so you can organize the list later.

If all speakers are functional and the wires are connected, you should hear sound from all of them. List any that don't make sound and test again- the house will need to be extremely quiet for the next test- with the helper as close as possible to the inoperable speaker, touch the speaker wires together. If they hear a very slight click, repeat the test with the battery- if they hear the same slight click, give it a number and make note of the room- the slight click means the manufacturer or installer connected a capacitor to the speaker, to prevent bass frequencies from reaching it and this would generally apply to speakers that are 4" in diameter (like in a small bathroom or shower).

Once you know how the speakers are grouped, you can select a speaker selector with volume controls- adding controls may not be practical.

 

[kandrc]

I was mistaken about 10 wires/10 speakers. It's actually 10 wires/9 speakers. The Walmart radio doesn't have an auxiliary out like I thought it did, but I opened up up, cut the leads to the speakers, and tied into them to trace out the wires. 8 speakers work, and they sound really good, especially considering the "quality" of the radio. The ninth is the central speaker in the room with 3, which I suspect was once part of a home theater system. In addition to being a center speaker, it's also unique in that it's built into a cabinet that is not original (so it was moved at some point). I suspect that it works as well as the others, but the wire is gone. It's actually only 5 feet from the termination point, so it's an easy pull if I want to get it running, but I'm okay with it for now.

The other two wires are open (used my multimeter, as per above). One of those two is the only one that was stripped. I suspect that they may have once gone to outdoor speakers. The wires are numbered, but without removing the speakers from the walls, the numbers are useless to me; however, I have determined that the paired speakers were numbered sequentially. The two open wires are 9 and 10.

So, I've confirmed that the speakers are wired, they work, and they sound good. This is all expected, but nice to confirm. That brings me back to the original question of what I need to buy? This is the part where I am overwhelmed with information.

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

I’d again recommend a multi-meter like highfigh suggested, so you can determine the nominal impedance of the speakers. You’ll need to know that when you go to select an amplifier.

Re the volume controls, if you’re talking about them being local (i.e. in the same room where the speakers are), I’m afraid you’re out of luck there. They should have been put in during the original installation. At this point it will require a complete re-wire to put them in.

I’d suggest getting in touch with Home Theater Direct. They specialize in affordable whole-house audio electronics and can probably recommend the right equipment for your needs.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[markw]

With that many speakers, multi-channel amps are the best way to go. This one has 12 channels so it can safely handle twelve speakers, or six pairs of stereo speakers.

http://www.outdoorspeakerdepot.com/6-zone-multi-channel-amp-osd-mx1260.html?gclid=CIet79uJqssCFQgaaQodda0CuA

Volume control and switching hetween different sources for different speakers are a different issues.

 

[kandrc]

Forgot to add in my last reply: The two larger speakers measure 6 ohms, and all others measure 4 ohms. I don't detect evidence of capacitance in the circuits.

 

[TheWarrior]

Forgot to add in my last reply: The two larger speakers measure 6 ohms, and all others measure 4 ohms. I don't detect evidence of capacitance in the circuits.

Now that you've caught up, please re-read my post.

I'm honestly trying to help you, and because you will need to re-wire this, you will want a precise understanding of your goals so you don't ever have to do it again!

So if there is even potential for future HT upgrades in any of these rooms, I strongly recommend planning for them, and even pre-wiring while you are inside the walls adding volume controls anyway!

Once you can list the exact requirements of the entire distributed audio system, we can then recommend hardware. Literally, skies the limit, it's whatever you want this all to become! A party house with all speakers blasting, or a sanctuary with private systems for specific rooms. If you've got the inclination to learn, there's enough knowledge on this site to achieve just about anything!

Or hire someone.

 

[kandrc]

Now that you've caught up, please re-read my post.

I'm honestly trying to help you, and because you will need to re-wire this, you will want a precise understanding of your goals so you don't ever have to do it again!

So if there is even potential for future HT upgrades in any of these rooms, I strongly recommend planning for them, and even pre-wiring while you are inside the walls adding volume controls anyway!

Once you can list the exact requirements of the entire distributed audio system, we can then recommend hardware. Literally, skies the limit, it's whatever you want this all to become! A party house with all speakers blasting, or a sanctuary with private systems for specific rooms. If you've got the inclination to learn, there's enough knowledge on this site to achieve just about anything!

Or hire someone.

Why would I need to rewire this? I've got wires and speakers, I've tested them, they work, and they sound good. I don't care that they don't have independent volume controls in the rooms; I can achieve that at the other end. Rewiring it would entail ripping out drywall all over my house. I'd go with a wireless system before I'd deal with the labor and dust involved with that.

As for what I want to do, I think I was clear enough about that. I want to be able to play music in the speakers. I want to be able to control their volumes independently. I'd like to be able to have more than one source playing on different speakers at the same time (but I can live without that). And most importantly, I don't want to break anything.

And the sky is not the limit. The limit is roughly $1000.

 

[TheWarrior]

Why would I need to rewire this?

This is why:

I want to be able to control their volumes independently.

 

[kandrc]

This is why:

I don't need to run new wires for that. I can control it at the other end of the run.

 

[highfigh]

This is why:

If the equipment location is centrally located, a speaker selector with level controls would work, without any need to require anything. If they're willing to go for a short walk when the level needs to be adjusted, it's not a problem.

 

[TheWarrior]

If the equipment location is centrally located, a speaker selector with level controls would work, without any need to require anything. If they're willing to go for a short walk when the level needs to be adjusted, it's not a problem.

@kandrc
You're going to get a DA preamp for at least 5 zones with independent volume control on each zone for less than $1000? Plus the amp?

I'm not trying to be a pain in the neck here. Distributed audio is a different animal to home theater. You cannot buy a receiver and just use each channel independently. Wall mounted volume controls are the cheapest and most convenient solution. The work is not that unbearable, and can be done with a basic working knowledge.

You sought help, and product recommendations. You'll notice the only one so far is a standard multi zone preamp, that fits within your budget, but requires wall mounted volume controls.

 

[highfigh]

I don't need to run new wires for that. I can control it at the other end of the run.

how could you control it from either end?

How many speakers could be on each zone? If you want to use more than one speaker/pair on each control, you can use a local level control for each, rather than use one control box for all of the speakers. One main reason to do it this way is that when you use one control box for speaker switching/control, the speakers share the output from the amp vs using one amplifier channel for each zone or two channels/speaker, if the speakers need to operate at higher power level. In that case, you would bridge the channels and use a total of two channels for each speaker (or voice coil, if the speaker are the kind made for single-point stereo). The real benefit to using one amplifier channel/speaker vs using a stereo amp to feed the speaker selector/volume control is that first, the selectors usually don't handle more than 100w and if they do, they're very expensive. With each speaker/channel in a multi-channel amplifier, the volume control affecting one speaker won't affect the signal level to the other channels, You would be using 100W total/9-12 speakers, or 40W/speaker (stereo mode)-80W/speaker (bridge mode). Much better headroom, more overall level and if you use a multi-zone AVR, you can have separate zone control for level. The 12 channel amplifier Markw linked to has a set of input jacks for each channel and two pairs at the left end (as you look at the rear), which can be used to send signal to Input 1, 2 or Line (used for all channels). I have used amps that are basically the same from other suppliers and they work great. One is being used for speakers around the house, four channels are bridged to two, for the volume control on the deck and two channels bridged to one, for the subwoofer in the family room. They don't need/want a lot of bass, but it really helps. It turns on when the signal reaches it and shuts off automatically, too.

Is it possible to go into the attic (or basement, if it has one) to search for the speaker wires? If so, and if the speaker cabling was run above the walls, rather than through them, it would be possible to insert a cable drop for adding volume controls, as long as you can see the top plate of the walls where the cable needs to pass. You would need a stud finder, a 1/8" drill bit (or smaller) a good light, a helper, a cordless drill and some electrical parts.

If you don't want to tackle this, it's understandable.

 

[highfigh]

You're going to get a preamp with at least 5 zones with independent volume control on each zone for less than $1000? Plus the amp?

With careful shopping, a stereo receiver with 2-3 zones and an AVR can be bought for less than $1000. Might not be new, but it's possible. $500 won't get it, though.

 

[agarwalro]

This kit comes with volume controls.

http://www.htd.com/Products/midlevel

 

[kandrc]

@highfigh I've checked the basement. No wires down there. House has cathedral ceilings. No attic. I've pulled many wires in many different environments. Pulling without opening walls is not an option here. $1000 is a target, not a limit. Seems I was a bit naive with that number.

@agarwalro That looks great, but it comes with volume controls to go in the walls, and I haven't got the wiring for it.

Poking around on that site, I found this one: http://www.htd.com/Products/Mid-Level-and-Lync-Systems-Without-Keypads/MCA-66-and-GW-SL1

I think this will do the job, and allow control through phones and tablets. Am I correct in my understanding?

I'll still need a receiver and CD changer, so I might end up at about $1500.

 

[agarwalro]

Poking around on that site, I found this one: http://www.htd.com/Products/Mid-Level-and-Lync-Systems-Without-Keypads/MCA-66-and-GW-SL1

I think this will do the job, and allow control through phones and tablets. Am I correct in my understanding?

I think it'll work, though, I'm not comfortable with having soft controls only. Best to call HTD and ensure this will meet your use case.

 

[Latent]

There seem to be many ways to solve this multi-room audio system which can make working out what to do a bit complex.

First there are 4 ways to power the speakers:

1. Big PA amplifier that is designed to drive multiple speakers which combined have a very low impedance (your 4 ohm speakers combined may cause problems though as all 8+ ohm would be easier to drive). Plus you may need a speaker switching box with built in volume control or passive volume controls on the wall in each room. You only have one audio source for all rooms with this system which doesn't meet your design goals.
2. Multi-channel power amplifiesr or multiple stereo amplifiers. Each speaker gets it's own amp now. This means each speaker can be independently source and volume controlled. with the right devices in front of them.
3. Multi-zone capable integrated devices that combine source streaming, input switching, wifi mobile device control, volume control and built in amplification. Some AVR's can do this but normally only a few zones supported max but some systems like Yamaha MusicCast or Denon Heos can handle more zones by linking devices.
4. Wireless Speakers with built in amps, source streaming and everything else often connected via WIFI. Sonos and the many other competitors like Play-Fi etc. But this setup may not help you as you already have speakers built in. Some systems like MusicCast and Heos can mixed with 3 and 4.

After you work out what method you will power your speakers with you need to work out how you are going to provide sources and control the setup. option 1 above is relatively simple as you just need one device you can control to select or stream the sources. This could be a AVR, a DAC connected to a computer or something more modern like a Chrome Cast audio device. Lots of options to choose from really. For 3 and 4 above you have nothing much else to solve as they already provide everything you need.

This leaves option 2 above as the most complex but also the most flexible system. There are many multi-room audio source switching devices to look into. Many of them are based on home automation technology and basically have a control and switching box with X audio channels of output. Many of these systems are setup for custom installers to configure and program for you. I'm sure others can suggest solutions to look into.

One other solution I was thinking would be interesting if it was practical was to just buy one Chrome Cast Audio device (US$35) per room and connect them to your Multi-channel power amps. They don't have the best DAC built into them but you have the option down the track of using their optical SPDIF output and put a better external DAC between them and the poweramp. With this very simple setup you can control audio to any number of rooms from an android phone or tablet. I'm not 100% sure how well volume control works with this system and how good is google chrome cast multi-room interface?

Another issue to think about is how do you handle 1 and 3 speaker rooms??? sources are traditionally stereo and this often down not work well with in ceiling speakers. Some speakers accept 2 sets of speaker wire and are stereo in just the one unit which solves the issue but this may not be an option for you. Some solutions may have the option to mix down to Mono to solve this. May be able to get a simple stereo to mono mixing device to place just before the amp stage.

Anyway just some ideas there.