tri-amp speakers: crown xls series 2 vs yamaha p series vs ?

[stonemarten]

Dear experts,

I want tri-amp my speakers: the crossover is a minidsp 2x8.

I own now 2 crown xls 1000, but, after reading a lot, I think I can make a better choice. Since I need to buy another one, I would have a good match and maybe replace all of them.

I kind of like the new crown xls 1502, mostly because they have a remote switch and 103dB SNR, and I read good stuff about the Yamaha P series, not sure what model, but they are more expensive, and the small one has only 100dB SNR.
The speaker minimum impedance, for a limited Hz, go down to 3.2 ohm.
I prefer to have a balanced input, but it's not mandatory.
I understand that a lot of power will be wasted, especially for the dome tweeter. I don't care that much as long as I can have a good sound and no hiss from the drivers.
I'm not an electrical engineer so I don't know technically if the toroidal are really better or the dsp in the xls can change the sound...

Any guidance and recommendation for sail in the sea of the billions amplifiers offers and get the best value to money will be really appreciated!

thanks

cheers

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The SNR difference of 100dB vs 103dB is insignificant. I doubt you can hear any improvement between the Crown vs Yamaha.

 

[stonemarten]

Acudeftechguy,

so you mean that the dsp in the xls vs the analog in the Yamaha doesn't make any difference? This is one of my main doubt...

thanks!

cheers

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Acudeftechguy,

so you mean that the dsp in the xls vs the analog in the Yamaha doesn't make any difference? This is one of my main doubt...

thanks!

cheers

If you are use DSP (digital Signal Processor) vs Direct (no DSP), then of course there may be a significant difference.

But if you do NOT use any DSP on either one, then there would not be a difference.

 

[highfigh]

Dear experts,

I want tri-amp my speakers: the crossover is a minidsp 2x8.

I own now 2 crown xls 1000, but, after reading a lot, I think I can make a better choice. Since I need to buy another one, I would have a good match and maybe replace all of them.

I kind of like the new crown xls 1502, mostly because they have a remote switch and 103dB SNR, and I read good stuff about the Yamaha P series, not sure what model, but they are more expensive, and the small one has only 100dB SNR.
The speaker minimum impedance, for a limited Hz, go down to 3.2 ohm.
I prefer to have a balanced input, but it's not mandatory.
I understand that a lot of power will be wasted, especially for the dome tweeter. I don't care that much as long as I can have a good sound and no hiss from the drivers.
I'm not an electrical engineer so I don't know technically if the toroidal are really better or the dsp in the xls can change the sound...

Any guidance and recommendation for sail in the sea of the billions amplifiers offers and get the best value to money will be really appreciated!

thanks

cheers

How loud will your source material be playing? If it won't be at high SPL, you should never hear ANY noise from any of those amplifiers and if you look at the Crown specs, they're both rated at 2 Ohms, so your drivers won't present any problem. Also, the distance between you and the speakers, the speaker sensitivity and SPL have everything to do with how much noise will be audible. With an amplifier spec'd at 100dB S/N and operating at peak SPL in the 90dB range, no noise will be heard. As soon as the music begins, it will mask the noise and in fact, ambient noise levels are typically around 65dB-75dB and if your ears ring (be honest!), you might hear something at the speaker but not from your listening position unless the tweeters are incredibly directional. If you hear anything, the system isn't set up for best low-noise operation.

 

[stonemarten]

Sorry for the basic question, but if I use bypass mode in the xls I'm not using any dsp, even if it's a d class amp?

Highfigh,

They will be at 90dB at 1mt. Now I can hear some hiss with nothing connected at around 50 cm, but, as you said, this should be not a problem

Thanks very much for the help!!!

Cheers

 

[RichB]

Sorry for the basic question, but if I use bypass mode in the xls I'm not using any dsp, even if it's a d class amp?

Highfigh,

They will be at 90dB at 1mt. Now I can hear some hiss with nothing connected at around 50 cm, but, as you said, this should be not a problem

Thanks very much for the help!!!

Cheers

If you are concerned about hiss in your tweeter then you need to look for the amp's S/N a 1 watt not full power. The Crown XLS 1000 SN is specificed as:

>97 dB (rated as dBr to full rated 8 ohm power output)
​

It is the noise floor that you are hearing. S/N at full power is not a good metric.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Sorry for the basic question, but if I use bypass mode in the xls I'm not using any dsp, even if it's a d class amp?

Correct. It doesn't matter what type of amp it is. Bypass means no DSP.

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

If you are concerned about hiss in your tweeter then you need to look for the amp's S/N a 1 watt not full power. The Crown XLS 1000 SN is specificed as:

>97 dB (rated as dBr to full rated 8 ohm power output)
​

It is the noise floor that you are hearing. S/N at full power is not a good metric.

Good point. Unfortunately S/N @ 1 watt seems to be a difficult spec to come by.

By the way, anyone know what the heck “dBr” is?

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

I own now 2 crown xls 1000, but, after reading a lot, I think I can make a better choice. Since I need to buy another one, I would have a good match and maybe replace all of them.

I kind of like the new crown xls 1502, mostly because they have a remote switch and 103dB SNR, and I read good stuff about the Yamaha P series, not sure what model, but they are more expensive, and the small one has only 100dB SNR.

As Rich indicated, not all noise specs are created equal.

My take is that the Yamaha amps are probably going to be noticeably quieter, and that’s very important for full-range use. Yamaha specs S/N at 20 Hz – 20 kHz DIN AUDIO. I have no idea what “DIN AUDIO” means, but the fact that they give a full bandwidth figure tells me it’s probably an unweighted spec (i.e. dBu, a.k.a Z-weighting). On top of that, (like you) I’ve heard good things about the performance of the P-series in hi-fi applications.

By contrast, Crown lists the XLS S/N spec as A-weighted, which I’m always suspicious of. As you can see from the graph below, A-weighting rolls out both the highs and lows. Well duh, that’s where all the potential noise is! So an A-weighted noise spec can be (functionally-speaking) up to 10 dB worse than an unweighted (broadband) spec.

A-Weighted Frequency Response Curve​

By the way, fully-active speaker systems are extremely efficient since they have no passive crossovers sucking up power. As such you’ll probably be able to drive your finished system to ear-bleeding levels with amps in the 50-100 watt range, so you’re probably going way overboard with any of the amps you’re proposing. You’ll probably never see anything but a flicker from the lowest element of the LED meters.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[stonemarten]

Rich,

If you are concerned about hiss in your tweeter then you need to look for the amp's S/N a 1 watt not full power. The Crown XLS 1000 SN is specificed as:

>97 dB (rated as dBr to full rated 8 ohm power output)​

It is the noise floor that you are hearing. S/N at full power is not a good metric.

Thanks, this is a very good information: agree that it is not an easy data to find... I will write to the crown support

AcuDefTechGuy,

Correct. It doesn't matter what type of amp it is. Bypass means no DSP.

Thanks!! This was one of my main doubt and you were very clear. I really appreciate your help!

Wayne,

​

By the way, fully-active speaker systems are extremely efficient since they have no passive crossovers sucking up power. As such you’ll probably be able to drive your finished system to ear-bleeding levels with amps in the 50-100 watt range, so you’re probably going way overboard with any of the amps you’re proposing. You’ll probably never see anything but a flicker from the lowest element of the LED meters.

I like the Yamaha more as well personally, no tech involved, but they are rated until 4ohm not 2ohm: could this be a problem? They are a little more expensive but I'm ok

thanks to all!

cheers

 

[highfigh]

Sorry for the basic question, but if I use bypass mode in the xls I'm not using any dsp, even if it's a d class amp?

Highfigh,

They will be at 90dB at 1mt. Now I can hear some hiss with nothing connected at around 50 cm, but, as you said, this should be not a problem

Thanks very much for the help!!!

Cheers

What's "1mt"? One meter? An amplifier's S/N ratio is an electronic measurement and has nothing to do with distance, acoustics, the speakers used or anything but the controlled conditions that should be used to determine that spec. Any measurement that is done at any distance needs to be referenced to the output voltage. If you short the INPUT jacks and hear significant noise, the amp may have a problem- that's a worst case scenario and with 90dB S/N ratio, it shouldn't be audible from your listening position.

 

[Latent]

One interesting thing to note is that bi-amping and tri-amping do not waste 2-3 time the power as normal. With active mode where there is a dsp crossover or a passive crossover before the amp sections the amp only drives the required frequency to each section so they are more efficient.

With a passive setup where the speakers filter networks are in use and the same signal is passed to multiple amp sections the power used and converted to heat inside the speaker is nearly identical to that of a normal single amp speaker. This may be counter intuitive because you are feeding it multiple amplifiers worth of power but this is just the way electonics works. There is a bit more power used especially at low volume levels because each amp unit consumes power just being on and having more amp sections running means more of this power wasted but as I said the power driving the speakers is the same. What makes this magic trick work is that the filter network on say the tweater section presents a high impedance load at all the low frequencies meaning even though you are feeding it a full range high power signal only the high frequencies pass current and the lows have a low current. Some energy is still absorbed by the filter network and speaker though which is why active mode is better.

Another thing to note is that the power requirement goes down as frequency goes up meaning the tweater amp can be a 20W amp and the mid could be a 50W with the low being a 150W for example. So three stereo amps of different power could be used. Lower power amps for the high may also have better SNR and lower hiss.

 

[stonemarten]

highfigh,

What's "1mt"? One meter?

yes it is

If you short the INPUT jacks and hear significant noise, the amp may have a problem- that's a worst case scenario and with 90dB S/N ratio, it shouldn't be audible from your listening position.

do you mean to take the + and - of one channel input and put them on the same pin? what's the amp volume position? what type of result I should expect?

Thanks Latent for the very detailed description, appreciated

cheers

 

[highfigh]

highfigh,



yes it is



do you mean to take the + and - of one channel input and put them on the same pin? what's the amp volume position? what type of result I should expect?

Thanks Latent for the very detailed description, appreciated

cheers

You could use a stereo cable (a cheap one probably works best because the ring used for the shield is more flexible)- plug one end into the amp's input jacks and insert the tip of each plug into the space between the pin and ring of the other. Your amp won't care because it's at the input, but you're only using the amp at this point, no other equipment is involved. Power up the amp and listen for hiss- if it's not noticeable from your listening position, you can be assured that any noise you hear in the system won't be coming from the amp. Shut the amp off, remove the cables from the input jacks and power it up again, repeating the listening test- if you heard anything before, it's unlikely that you'll hear anything without the cables unless you have a strong source of radio frequency energy nearby.

If you hear hiss when no music is playing and the rest of the system is connected, make sure the input sensitivity controls on the power amp aren't set wide open- that's not the correct setting unless certain conditions exist and it's rare that it's necessary. With the preamp set to an unused source on the selector, rotate the volume control until you begin to hear hiss at your listening position- if you hear anything before the control reaches about 2:00, I would be surprised and at that position, the level will be so high the noise will be the least of your problems.

 

[markw]

ized equalizer

Another thing to note is that the power requirement goes down as frequency goes up meaning the tweater amp can be a 20W amp and the mid could be a 50W with the low being a 150W for example. So three stereo amps of different power could be used. Lower power amps for the high may also have better SNR and lower hiss.

This is fine if all three amps have the same gain, which is rarely the case. That's why in a situation like this, an active crossover is/should be employed before the power amps. That's the way we did it when I was doing church sound for the groups that played here and we actually quad amped speaker arrays. Of course, having a computerized equalizer made the settings things a lot easier.

 

[stonemarten]

highfigh,

You could use a stereo cable (a cheap one probably works best because the ring used for the shield is more flexible)- plug one end into the amp's input jacks and insert the tip of each plug into the space between the pin and ring of the other.

Do you mean a stereo jack or an RCA cable? if it's the former, can I do with the latter?

If you hear hiss when no music is playing and the rest of the system is connected, make sure the input sensitivity controls on the power amp aren't set wide open- that's not the correct setting unless certain conditions exist and it's rare that it's necessary. With the preamp set to an unused source on the selector, rotate the volume control until you begin to hear hiss at your listening position- if you hear anything before the control reaches about 2:00, I would be surprised and at that position, the level will be so high the noise will be the least of your problems.

I have some hiss now with nothing connected, just the amp to the speaker. I still didn't try to listen anything, but I will to see if the noise persist. The tweeter is 90dB @ 2.83 V / 1 m.
I will do this test and will be back

Mark,

active crossover is/should be employed before the power amps

right, the minidsp is between the pre-amp and the amps.

btw, I was reading the thread about the crown amps here: some says that you need to run them at full volume and use the pre-amp, some says that you should run at 12 o'clock. My pre, when audissey run its stuff, set itself at 0dB... I'm afraid that run the Crown at full volume will break my drivers during that test. What do you recommend?

thanks!

cheers

 

[markw]

I have no concrete idea but I'll venture a guess that noise will be increased if you run the crowns flat out.

 

[highfigh]

My take is that the Yamaha amps are probably going to be noticeably quieter, and that’s very important for full-range use. Yamaha specs S/N at 20 Hz – 20 kHz DIN AUDIO. I have no idea what “DIN AUDIO” means, but the fact that they give a full bandwidth figure tells me it’s probably an unweighted spec (i.e. dBu, a.k.a Z-weighting). On top of that, (like you) I’ve heard good things about the performance of the P-series in hi-fi applications.

DIN is Germany's version of ASTM or other agencies that create standards for production, testing, etc. You know the aftermarket rectangular head units that fit in German cars? That's called a DIN head unit or 'Double DIN' if, as expected, it's twice as high. The round jack on older Japanese and European audio near the RCA jacks is a DIN jack and if you have done anything with a '70s-early-'90s European or some Japanese car hear units, they often used DIN cables to carry audio for all channels without the bulk of paired audio cables and a handful of RCA plugs.

http://www.din.de/en