2 Channel System

[Charlie Lamar]

I've had many variations of surround speaker system and would like to build a two channel system that not only performs well but has the esthetics of a beefy dual monoblock amplification system. Maybe even vacuum tube amps. I entertain often and typical 60's, 70's and 80's rock music. I would like to build all the components so I can detail them as I wish. I know armed with tons of cash I can buy anything but my goal is to get a great sounding system that is also a magnificent show piece through sweat equity and ingenuity. I am an apt fabricator but am late to the show in the audio game so I am hoping this forum will provide me a key to the rabbit hole. I revel in the idea of soldering and assembling.

 

[Swerd]

Charlie, welcome to Audioholics! Can you also do woodwork, or know someone who can build speaker cabinets? Read this DIY speaker thread. http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/new-diy-mtm-towers-designed-by-dennis-murphy-and-paul-kittinger.68531/

In my modest opinion, it's the rabbit hole key you are looking for. The parts are available as a kit from Meniscus Audio

Dome Tweeter version http://meniscusaudio.com/er18mtm-dome-pair-p-1322.html

Ribbon Tweeter version http://meniscusaudio.com/er18mtm-ribbon-pair-p-1323.html

 

[Charlie Lamar]

Nice review. Certainly did a nice job. Does the same option exist for building amps and pre amps?

 

[Latent]

I don't think custom building amps and pre-amps is very common. It's more common for people to discuss repairing, re-caping and servicing older units or rebuilding old tube amplifiers. It takes a lot of Electrical engineering to make a really good amp/pre-amp and while there may be a few kit-set options they may not be of the same end quality you are after. Another thing to look into is things like MiniDSP which create amazing little devices that you can get to do all sorts of things if you have the time to spend on them.

 

[jinjuku]

IMO for pre-amps and amps it's not worth it for most people. You can get a killer DAC/Pre for not a lot of money.

My current favorite is the TEAC UD-301 has everything most could want: formats > PCM up to 24/192 and DSD 2.8/5.6Mhz, Dual Monaural design, head phone amp. Da 'werks. $399

Crown 1502 Drive Core Gen II for $399.

That amp/dac-pre will sound good even on some $30,000 KEF's, Status, Wilsons, what have you.

 

[Swerd]

Nice review. Certainly did a nice job. Does the same option exist for building amps and pre amps?

I'm a DIY speaker guy, so I can talk intelligently about building speakers. What led me into that, at first, was the substantial savings in DIY vs. retail. Now I realize how much sound quality can be had if you DIY. If you aren't interested in the rather large ER18 MTM towers, I know other similarly good designs that involve smaller bookshelf style cabinets.

Electronic gear is mass produced, and tends to be priced more competitively, leaving less savings to be gained by DIY. I avoid spending a lot by relying on used electronic gear. However, I fully understand your desire to detail things as you wish.

There are a few builders of electronic gear, such as amps & preamps, around here. One person comes to mind, who posts here under the name slipperybidness. I know he has more experience with building amp kits (maybe preamp kits too), and can comment on that. I'll let him know of this thread.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/any-diy-amp-builders-recs.81863/#post-911335

I would also trust what jinjuku has to say on the subject. Latent is new to me, but what he says also makes sense.

As you may have already sensed, audio has a significant amount of voodoo about it. You should be cautious about believing claims about exotic or unusual designs.

 

[jinjuku]

The Kairos kit is astounding. The drivers are acoustically time aligned.

I would do these and some high quality subs.

 

[Swerd]

One other point. I would avoid tube amplifiers, as they have clear limitations. I have, however, heard some nice systems that used preamps with tubes in them, powered by solid state amps.

But what do I know, I'm only a speaker guy .

 

[slipperybidness]

Nice review. Certainly did a nice job. Does the same option exist for building amps and pre amps?

I'm your guy for DIY amps and pre-amps info!

What did you have in mind?

General Options
1) A kit with all the parts and detailed instructions? Or all parts and less detailed instructions?
2) Buy PCBs and determine your own parts and components and chassis and power supply, etc, etc?
3) Etch your own PCBs from published artwork and buy your own parts based on the designer's BOM?

Of course, to give you the best idea of what the design goals should be, it would be best to know what speakers you would be using on the electronics.

I also agree that I would tend to steer you away from tube amps and pre-amps. Tube amps won't have the power of SS amps, and in general are more expensive for less performance, and the tubes degrade over time, plus other issues. That being said......I did build a Dynaco ST-70 tube amp clone myself too.

Take a look at this thread. This is the most recent amp that I have built, basically I used option #2 above. I chose the TI Chip that I wanted to use based on the chip data sheet specs, then I found the PCBs that were high quality and already the closest layout to the topology that I wanted, allowing for the least modification or "circuit bending". Then I choose the components that I needed for each job in the circuit (i.e. spent the extra $ where it had the potential to impact sound quality and spent less $ for areas that would not impact SQ).

This is a Chipamp, but chipamps actually can have very good sound quality, and they are very common in consumer products (Lepai for example). However, I can provide resources for discrete component amplification too.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/new-chipamp-project-thread.92513/

 

[KEW]

Slippery,
Can you speak to the practicality of building amps/pres? Why do you do it?
I'm thinking it is more for the education and feeling of ownership than performance/price. That's great and may be exactly what Charlie is looking for, but, if nothing else, I'm curious how this works.
I assume you can't build a kit to compare with value oriented commercial audio.
What about high-end? It seems like there may be some opportunity there. Are there any "Uber-plans/kits"?

 

[slipperybidness]

Slippery,
Can you speak to the practicality of building amps/pres? Why do you do it?
I'm thinking it is more for the education and feeling of ownership than performance/price. That's great and may be exactly what Charlie is looking for, but, if nothing else, I'm curious how this works.
I assume you can't build a kit to compare with value oriented commercial audio.
What about high-end? It seems like there may be some opportunity there. Are there any "Uber-plans/kits"?

First, some general comments. Yes, building amps is likely not the value proposition that it was 30 to 40 years ago. On price/performance in today's market, it would definitely be tough to compete against the Crown XLS series with DIY, but to be fair not many commercial products can compete either. However, if you compare to the likes of Emotiva, Parasound, etc, it is a much more fair fight.

But, there is still definitely $ to be saved by going this route. The Chassis, heat sinks, and the Transformer will ALWAYS be the top $ items for any electronics build! If you can manage to scavenge those parts or build the chassis from scratch, the value proposition goes up exponentially!

For the other components, they cost maybe 30% maybe up to 40% or so of the cost of the transformer and chassis. For the other components, remember that when you buy in bulk, the price per component can go down substantially! What that means is that sometimes I could buy 10 of "part A" for the same price as 7 of "Part A". I may only need 5 of them for that project, but now I have the spares for the next project at a cheaper overall price per part. I typically purchase from Mouser or Parts-express and each of those vendors has the quantity discounts on the product web pages.

The "downside" for me (if you really want to call it that) is that I took the $ that I saved on the electronics and used it to purchase an excellent O-scope, a function generator, an excellent auto-ranging multi-meter, a benchtop power supply, etc. So, I didn't really save much $, but I got educated and I got the tools to make measurements too, all included for the price of entry.

Next, remember that ANY commercial product, especially amps or speakers are ALWAYS a compromise! Something is compromised somewhere and design decisions are made in order to hit specific price points. When you DIY, you don't have to compromise to YOUR design decisions, or at least YOU decide where to save $ and where to spend $.

To address your specific questions:
Can you speak to the practicality of building amps/pres? Why do you do it?
I consider it fairly practical, but I'm not the average user either. I admit, I do it mostly for fun and learning! And bragging rights

I assume you can't build a kit to compare with value oriented commercial audio.
There are some kits that I think will compete pretty well. I got my GOBO from Boxed Kit Amps at a sale price for $120 delivered. IIRC, it can do a continuous 18W with 1 channel driven (I only had the gear to test 1 channel at a time). It isn't a monster or anything, but for the price and for a desktop system, I think it sounds quite good. I doubt that you could do much if any better at the price point. Granted, I think it is normally $160---and I would personally not pay that for it.
I heard this one just briefly at RMAF, but I've been eyeing it for quite a while. Seems to do a lot of things right, and is $325 delivered. Personally, I would probably take this one over any of the lower end Emo amps.
http://akitika.com/GT101.html

What about high-end? It seems like there may be some opportunity there. Are there any "Uber-plans/kits"?
Yeah, if you are gonna DIY, this segment has some options and has the best chance of saving you $!!! If you are at this level......"we don't need no stinking kits"
C. Randy Sloan and Douglas Self have published books with the best of the best designs and artwork to make your own PCBs! Good stuff!
You can even purchase PCBs pre-made from the Douglas Self designs......they aren't cheap......but IMO these are THE TOP DOG for a DIY amp or pre-amp.....the guy literally wrote the books on amp and pre-amp designs!
http://www.signaltransfer.freeuk.com/index.htm
http://www.signaltransfer.freeuk.com/invarint.htm

I have not heard any of this guy's stuff, but dang I want to build one of these! Just looking at his resources and measurements, I like what I see.
http://ampslab.com/

Then, of course there are the Hypex / N-core modules that have just silly-good specs on paper.

And, this one has hit my radar within the last year or so, and 1 of the AH members is building it now. TLS approved of it when he saw us discussing it. Just check out those specs!
http://www.neurochrome.com/modulus-86/

 

[Charlie Lamar]

Lots of good stuff. Starting I will be powering a myriad of speakers but my favs are a pair of ESS AMT's. I want to build some badass monsters like the old polk SDA's or something in that style. I want a two speaker system that will sound great low and blow the windows out if I get cra Cra. A solid State A/B seems like the smart move. I like the look of dual monoblocks however I want the performance over the looks(That's why i Got rid of my Porsche 944, looks like a vette, ran like a beetle). I am however wanting to achieve many things in my two speaker system. Badass Sound, Badass Looks, All custom and I will most likely make custom furniture to support it. This is a marathon which will not be decided on in short order. I will most likely not design an amp set from scratch and would most like to get ahead of the curve by building a tried and true winner which I can add styling cues too. Imitation is the highest form of flattery and I would like to flatter someone. As with all things price/cost is a consideration. I sadly have a multitude of expensive hobbies and this, no doubt, will be one as well. All help and opinions are welcome and I appreciate all the comments.

 

[Swerd]

Lots of good stuff…

… I will be powering a myriad of speakers but my favs are a pair of ESS AMT's. I want to build some badass monsters like the old polk SDA's or something in that style.

All help and opinions are welcome and I appreciate all the comments.

Your progress and diversions should be interesting . Keep us informed. Maybe we can help you avoid a few pitfalls. If nothing else, you can bounce your ideas off of us. And we can tell you how crazy they are .

If you liked the ESS AMTs back in the day, you should like the sound of speakers with modern ribbon tweeters. They are said to sound better. Be aware that the old Heil AMT tweeters are no longer made, the name was sold, and what is now sold as an AMT tweeter apparently is a different beast. It has not been praised.

I've never heard those Polk SDA monsters, so I can't say anything about them, good or bad. Huge cabinets like they had must be difficult to build so they don't resonate.

 

[Charlie Lamar]

I may come into possession of a Halfler DH200 power amplifier which may be a temporary amp which I can customize esthetically and I read there are a few upgrades available for this model. This may be a starting point. Off hand I could see a preamp being the missing piece to getting this off the ground. I like getting the system together then transforming it into what I want. My brother says I have the knack of taking things nobody wants and turning them into things everyone wants. Let the games begin, and yes I'm a little cra cra

 

[Swerd]

I may come into possession of a Halfler DH200 power amplifier which may be a temporary amp which I can customize esthetically and I read there are a few upgrades available for this model.

The Hafler DH200, DH220, and XL280 were excellent and most of them still are today. If it runs and the price is right, jump on it.

There are a number of rebuilt kits for those old Haflers. I only know of one rather expensive non-DIY rebuild option. It however results in an excellent amp. Maybe others know about the DIY Hafler rebuild kits.

If you now have an older stereo receiver or an audio-video receiver that has preamp output jacks, use that as a preamp. Regardless of what some may think of them, they get the job done. Personally, I rank a preamp as lowest in priority as "gear that should be upgraded to improve sound quality".

 

[slipperybidness]

As far as DIY pre-amps, there are a few worth considering. Of course if you only have 1 source, then an input attenuator on the amp may suffice in place of a pre-amp.

http://www.signaltransfer.freeuk.com/preamp.htm

http://akitika.com/PR101.html

Probably not as good, but interesting
http://oddwattaudio.com/owforewatt.html

 

[Charlie Lamar]

regardless of the priority of the preamp they are necessary and I do not have one. I read the importance of matching them to the amplifier so the amp performs properly. Not really sure of the answer here but if given patients the universe will provide. LOL I'm not that profound but the preamp will be key to firing up everything in the event I get this amp. I can start smoking speakers sooner rather than later

 

[KEW]

First, some general comments. Yes, building amps is likely not the value proposition that it was 30 to 40 years ago. On price/performance in today's market, it would definitely be tough to compete against the Crown XLS series with DIY, but to be fair not many commercial products can compete either. However, if you compare to the likes of Emotiva, Parasound, etc, it is a much more fair fight.

But, there is still definitely $ to be saved by going this route. The Chassis, heat sinks, and the Transformer will ALWAYS be the top $ items for any electronics build! If you can manage to scavenge those parts or build the chassis from scratch, the value proposition goes up exponentially!

For the other components, they cost maybe 30% maybe up to 40% or so of the cost of the transformer and chassis. For the other components, remember that when you buy in bulk, the price per component can go down substantially! What that means is that sometimes I could buy 10 of "part A" for the same price as 7 of "Part A". I may only need 5 of them for that project, but now I have the spares for the next project at a cheaper overall price per part. I typically purchase from Mouser or Parts-express and each of those vendors has the quantity discounts on the product web pages.

The "downside" for me (if you really want to call it that) is that I took the $ that I saved on the electronics and used it to purchase an excellent O-scope, a function generator, an excellent auto-ranging multi-meter, a benchtop power supply, etc. So, I didn't really save much $, but I got educated and I got the tools to make measurements too, all included for the price of entry.

Next, remember that ANY commercial product, especially amps or speakers are ALWAYS a compromise! Something is compromised somewhere and design decisions are made in order to hit specific price points. When you DIY, you don't have to compromise to YOUR design decisions, or at least YOU decide where to save $ and where to spend $.

To address your specific questions:
Can you speak to the practicality of building amps/pres? Why do you do it?
I consider it fairly practical, but I'm not the average user either. I admit, I do it mostly for fun and learning! And bragging rights

I assume you can't build a kit to compare with value oriented commercial audio.
There are some kits that I think will compete pretty well. I got my GOBO from Boxed Kit Amps at a sale price for $120 delivered. IIRC, it can do a continuous 18W with 1 channel driven (I only had the gear to test 1 channel at a time). It isn't a monster or anything, but for the price and for a desktop system, I think it sounds quite good. I doubt that you could do much if any better at the price point. Granted, I think it is normally $160---and I would personally not pay that for it.
I heard this one just briefly at RMAF, but I've been eyeing it for quite a while. Seems to do a lot of things right, and is $325 delivered. Personally, I would probably take this one over any of the lower end Emo amps.
http://akitika.com/GT101.html

What about high-end? It seems like there may be some opportunity there. Are there any "Uber-plans/kits"?
Yeah, if you are gonna DIY, this segment has some options and has the best chance of saving you $!!! If you are at this level......"we don't need no stinking kits"
C. Randy Sloan and Douglas Self have published books with the best of the best designs and artwork to make your own PCBs! Good stuff!
You can even purchase PCBs pre-made from the Douglas Self designs......they aren't cheap......but IMO these are THE TOP DOG for a DIY amp or pre-amp.....the guy literally wrote the books on amp and pre-amp designs!
http://www.signaltransfer.freeuk.com/index.htm
http://www.signaltransfer.freeuk.com/invarint.htm

I have not heard any of this guy's stuff, but dang I want to build one of these! Just looking at his resources and measurements, I like what I see.
http://ampslab.com/

Then, of course there are the Hypex / N-core modules that have just silly-good specs on paper.

And, this one has hit my radar within the last year or so, and 1 of the AH members is building it now. TLS approved of it when he saw us discussing it. Just check out those specs!
http://www.neurochrome.com/modulus-86/

Thanks for taking the time to provide your assessment of DIY for amps. Good read! It sounds more practical that I was thinking!
Personally, my amp building days are over. At 18, I built SouthWestern Technical Products (SWTP) preamp and amp ($145 total). Unfortunately, I was patiently making sure that the soldier connections were good and thorough and had no idea I was frying transistors left and right as I leisurely flowed soldier throughout the joint!
They ended up being a side-project for a friends brother-in-law who was an EE in grad school. So at least they went on to have a life!
Today, I would contact the company and see if there were any alternatives for getting them running (or at least an idea of the extent of the damage). But back then, the long distance call to Texas would have been a chunk of change, and I didn't know enough about electronics nor understand why it didn't work to communicate effectively via snail mail. Times have indeed changed ...
They were good kits that cost/spec-wise beat out the commercial offerings of the day. Better deals than HeathKit for sure, but in retrospect HeathKit probably offered more thorough instructions geared towards beginners.

Images from ~1976 catalog:
http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/Catalog1976/Catalog1976.htm

 

[slipperybidness]

The styling on those old kits is awesome! Industrial!

 

[hifinerd]

I've built a few amp kits, pre and power. The links below are in Australia, but I think they ship overseas these days.
Altronics-products-kits and toys-audio
Jaycar also have kits

I have built a
6 channel x 40W chip amp,
2 x 250 Watt monoblocks;
4 channel 50W discrete amp,
the 'Studio' pre amp,
plus an older 15W Class A amp.
They all performed extremely well. The problem with them is that the cabinet work can be quite tedious and takes longer than assembling the boards. I have used Aluminium plate and sheet of different thickness, cut by the shop. It helps to have 3 and 4 mm thread taps. 1/8 inch and 3/16 inch. I can post pictures if you like. Note that Jaycar and Altronics also have the power supply boards and transformers. Altronics also has a couple of complete amp kits with hardware and pre-punched cases, that will speed up assembly.
The designs come from Silicon Chip magazine. You can buy the articles or issues they originated from prior to buying. The articles are included with the kits. They have quite comprehensive performance data and THD+N graphs.
I like kits because it takes less time than buying all the parts individually. I can recommend them for a newbie amp builder.

For speaker kits I have found this little two way called Meno at paradox loudspeakers.
They have precut flat pack boxes. Does anyone know anything about them?

Being an Audiophyte, I can't post links, sorry...

 

[Charlie Lamar]

I have learned that if I keep an open mind and am patient that things will fall into place. I have buddied up with the only Hi-Fi store in Chattanooga, "College Hi-Fi" and have some items on consignment there and he is very helpful. He seems happy to have someone of interest nosing around however he is in it to make money and I support that but I believe I can improve upon retail offerings. With this said and the feedback i have received thus far I believe I can ultimately get to my goal.
Phase one which should be well in place within a week or so will be:

Phase 1 or 2 speaker system 1.0: Hafler DH200 AMP
Preamp ???????
ESS AMT Speakers
Phone, Computer , Blue tooth or CD Player for music source
Monster Speaker wires and cables
Stand ???????
So my dilema is I do not have a preamp. I am not sure what to use. This is the area that need to be addressed.