Really Boring Stuff Only III: Resurrection

[BoredSysAdmin]

If you need a thermostat that reads your facebook page, who am I to question that?
.

Face what???
No, but wifi or z-wave integration will allow easy controls from pc/smartphone - makes thing so much easier.
As for security, I don't have to make available on the internet, maybe keep it behind vpn only. I will think about it.

 

[Swerd]

Lets agree to disagree. it's $150-200 which more than pays for itself in first year alone.

I've paid a lot of attention to heating and AC bills over the years, and I find claims of saving that much money are unrealistic. I leave my heat set to 68° when people are home, and 62° at night or when we're out. In the summer, I leave it at 74°.

Unless you've always left your thermostat at 72° or higher in the winter, you'd be better off spending cash on better windows or more insulation.

 

[agarwalro]

is gorgeous compared to most. It's programmable, and it also comes with free service ... can even send text messages ...

Still a better love story than my life .

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I've paid a lot of attention to heating and AC bills over the years, and I find claims of saving that much money are unrealistic. I leave my heat set to 68° when people are home, and 62° at night or when we're out. In the summer, I leave it at 74°.

Unless you've always left your thermostat at 72° or higher in the winter, you'd be better off spending cash on better windows or more insulation.

Well, I did left it at running 72f 24/7 before. Now with 1year old in the house I can't fudge around too much, but my 1st floor is separate zone is going down during night. 68f for now, but likely to adjust it more.

One most annoying "feature" of such old thermostats is they are un-able to switch to heat to cool automatically. This is typically not big problem, but it is annoying for about two months every year.

 

[Swerd]

Well, I did left it at running 72f 24/7 before. Now with 1year old in the house I can't fudge around too much, but my 1st floor is separate zone is going down during night. 68f for now, but likely to adjust it more.

I suspect your wife, and not the 1 year-old, is fiddling with the thermostat .

One most annoying "feature" of such old thermostats is they are un-able to switch to heat to cool automatically. This is typically not big problem, but it is annoying for about two months every year.

There's a good reason why heating/AC systems are designed so they can't both run at the same time. Older systems were intentionally built so that they were switched either or but never both. I suppose there are newer systems with internal safeguards to prevent that. At least I hope so. Otherwise some misguided owner will figure out a way to run both at the same time with his smart phone . Ask any Heating/AC guy what the hazards are if both systems are run for any length of time.

It's good that you have a 2-zone system. It gives you much better control. Does each zone have it's own thermostat? That's how my house is set up. If so, you'll need two of those $200 thermostats.

But seriously, if switching a thermostat is too much trouble to remember, how is it better to switch it by smart phone? And if you are reliable about remembering to switch it with your smart phone, why do you need a programmable thermostat?

Thermostat [\RANT\ended] or at least suspended .

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I suspect your wife, and not the 1 year-old, is fiddling with the thermostat .

You're in right direction, but missed the mark slightly. It goes like this "HUSBAND !!! I'M COLD !!! MAKE IT WARMER!!"

There's a good reason why heating/AC systems are designed so they can't both run at the same time. Older systems were intentionally built so that they were switched either or but never both. I suppose there are newer systems with internal safeguards to prevent that. At least I hope so. Otherwise some misguided owner will figure out a way to do that with his smart phone. Ask any Heating/AC guy what the hazards are if both systems are run for any length of time.

It's good that you have a 2-zone system. It gives you much better control. Does each zone have it's own thermostat? That's how my house is set up. If so, you'll need two of those $200 thermostats.

But seriously, if switching a thermostat is too much trouble to remember, how is it better to switch it by smart phone? And if you are reliable about remembering to switch it with your smart phone, why do you need a programmable thermostat?

Thermostat [\RANT\ended] or at least suspended .

It's good to know, but idea is not to run both at same time, but to switch heat/cold then necessary, and like I said there couple of months during year here then It's cold nights and very warm days.

Yes, I am painfully aware of need to double up for two zones
It's not the switching, but programming on the device is the annoying part. Programming or adjusting temporary from phone is a convenience

 

[fuzz092888]

Just had a school evacuation for a gas leak. Waited about 2 hours across the street in the auditorium of the community college. What a waste of time. Now we're back in school to rush the kids through lunch and squeeze in the last period of the day. Ah-well.

 

[Swerd]

Thermostat [\RANT\re-opened] …

I'm in the middle of a frustrating struggle at work with the IT people and the mega corporations whom they support. It involves MS Office 2010 and the inevitable switch to Office 2013 with all the magic & voodoo of the Cloud. We also have a number of one-off software applications that were originally written for older versions of MS Office, MS Windows, Java, etc. Getting them to run after new software is installed is a nightmare. It seems like we just settled down after the previous round of so-called "upgrades" to software. Considering the amount of downtime involved, they were anything but productive. Now it's happening all over again. My point to all this is that software "upgrades" do not necessarily mean genuine progress. But someone does make money from it.

Now, back to thermostats. There is an old adage about designing equipment. It involves the difference between "good enough" and "perfection". Other variations of this idea are expressed as:

• If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
• Why use an elephant gun, when a fly swatter works?
• Learn the difference between features with a genuine function, and features that are bells & whistles. Spend your money on the first type, and avoid the second.

When older thermostats get the job done and have been shown over the years to work reliably, why are software-based, internet-based thermostats considered progress? We already know that the business model of software corporations is to sell new products as examples of modern progress, but then extract more and more money through the inevitable software "upgrades". Why would anyone want to subject his home heating/ac system to the vagaries of system software "upgrades"?

Thermostat [\RANT\ended again] …

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Thermostat [\RANT\re-opened] …

I'm in the middle of a frustrating struggle at work with the IT people and the mega corporations whom they support. It involves MS Office 2010 and the inevitable switch to Office 2013 with all the magic & voodoo of the Cloud. We also have a number of one-off software applications that were originally written for older versions of MS Office, MS Windows, Java, etc. Getting them to run after new software is installed is a nightmare. It seems like we just settled down after the previous round of so-called "upgrades" to software. Considering the amount of downtime involved, they were anything but productive. Now it's happening all over again. My point to all this is that software "upgrades" do not necessarily mean genuine progress. But someone does make money from it.

The changes from 2010 to 2013 Imo don't justify the upgrade, certainly not at any large enough organization. For legacy applications something ThinApp could a good solution.

Now, back to thermostats. There is an old adage about designing equipment. It involves the difference between "good enough" and "perfection". Other variations of this idea are expressed as:

• If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
• Why use an elephant gun, when a flyswatter works?
• Learn the difference between features with a genuine function, and features that are bells & whistles. Spend your money on the first type, and avoid the second.

When older thermostats get the job done and have been shown over the years to work reliably, why are software-based, internet-based thermostats considered progress? We already know that the business model of software corporations is to sell new products as examples of modern progress, but then extract more and more money through the inevitable software "upgrades". Why would anyone want to subject his home heating/ac system to the vagaries of system software "upgrades"?

Thermostat [\RANT\ended again] …

The definition of IT person is one who mucks around with perfectly operable system to "make it better".
Like my espresso machine - Saeco Aroma. It's makes decent cup or joe, but I had to made "better" by modding from pressured to none-pressurized portafilter. Yes, this still not enough for me and I now I crave for new $1k+ espresso machine to make my coffee "better".

Like i mention switching from heat/cold is manual and currently beyond my wife expertise (despite her Phd level degree). I strongly suspect that like Warriors ecobee - new thermostat (besides being something new to play with) will allow easier programming and more convenient heat/cool adjustments, maybe even remote ones.

 

[Swerd]

The changes from 2010 to 2013 Imo don't justify the upgrade, certainly not at any large enough organization. For legacy applications something ThinApp could a good solution.

Unfortunately, where I work, those decisions are made well above my pay grade . The government has guidelines and warnings to prevent NIH scientists & MDs from conflict-of-interest creating ownership of stock in big pharma. I wonder if there are similar warnings about owning stock in software companies who also do very big business the govt.

The definition of IT person is one who mucks around with perfectly operable system to "make it better".

Like my espresso machine - Saeco Aroma. It's makes decent cup or joe, but I had to made "better" by modding from pressured to none-pressurized portafilter. Yes, this still not enough for me and I now I crave for new $1k+ espresso machine to make my coffee "better".

Making good coffee is all about preference & entertainment. Don't confuse things by involving that in my thermostat rant .

Like i mention switching from heat/cold is manual and currently beyond my wife expertise (despite her Phd level degree). I strongly suspect that like Warriors ecobee - new thermostat (besides being something new to play with) will allow easier programming and more convenient heat/cool adjustments, maybe even remote ones.

So you can reverse the changes she makes to the thermostat while you're away?

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Unfortunately, where I work, those decisions are made well above my pay grade . The government has guidelines and warnings to prevent NIH scientists & MDs from conflict-of-interest creating ownership of stock in big pharma. I wonder if there are similar warnings about owning stock in software companies who also do very big business the govt.

Making good coffee is all about preference & entertainment. Don't confuse things by involving that in my thermostat rant .
So you can reverse the changes she makes to the thermostat while you're away?

I am on my second Nest thermostat, the first on decided to start heating to 80 and then letting the house cool to 70 before heating to 80 again. It was at least consistent doing that 10 degree swing...

After trying all kinds of router reconfig as instructed by Nest, they ended up sending me a new one last month. In the 7 months of use I haven't really noticed any savings at all.

 

[TheWarrior]

You two are making me feel really old, but I see no reason at all why someone should pay $200 or more for a thermostat that requires an internet connection. Why allow another opening to your home to hackers?

What you need to realize is that internet connectivity is only the communications side. They are 'smart' because they measure the rate of heat loss and adjust their programming to keep one constant temp at all times.

By knowing the weather report, and by the user selecting hourly temps, the system will anticipate significant outdoor temp changes, and by knowing the rate of heat loss is able to far more efficiently maintain temps inside the house.

It's all in how you move the air!

 

[TheWarrior]

I am on my second Nest thermostat, the first on decided to start heating to 80 and then letting the house cool to 70 before heating to 80 again. It was at least consistent doing that 10 degree swing...

After trying all kinds of router reconfig as instructed by Nest, they ended up sending me a new one last month. In the 7 months of use I haven't really noticed any savings at all.

You're not the first person to complain about the Nest. My installer steered me clear of them citing numerous complaints.

I have the Ecobee Smart Si and it easily paid for itself the first year.

 

[Swerd]

I am on my second Nest thermostat, the first on decided to start heating to 80 and then letting the house cool to 70 before heating to 80 again. It was at least consistent doing that 10 degree swing...

After trying all kinds of router reconfig as instructed by Nest, they ended up sending me a new one last month. In the 7 months of use I haven't really noticed any savings at all.

I didn't know y'all have even central heating in Texas. The last thing I want is router reconfigs for a damn thermostat !

You seem like an early adapter, and on most things I'm a late adapter. Thanks for the experience report .

 

[Swerd]

What you need to realize is that internet connectivity is only the communications side. They are 'smart' because they measure the rate of heat loss and adjust their programming to keep one constant temp at all times.

By knowing the weather report, and by the user selecting hourly temps, the system will anticipate significant outdoor temp changes, and by knowing the rate of heat loss is able to far more efficiently maintain temps inside the house.

I hear ya. In theory that's a great idea. In practice, its still a work in progress. If it cost $75, I wouldn't question it. At $200 or more, I get a lot more demanding.

And if it isn't reliable, like the Nest, I don't care if they paid me to use, I wouldn't.

 

[TheWarrior]

I hear ya. In theory that's a great idea. In practice, its still a work in progress. If it cost $75, I wouldn't question it. At $200 or more, I get a lot more demanding.

And if it isn't reliable, like the Nest, I don't care if they paid me to use, I wouldn't.

Agreed, if it's not reliable it is a waste. My Ecobee has been running trouble free for 3 years.

I restate the 'stale air' issue because of how bad the IAQ is in many homes. You have to cycle your air every hour and filter it. The fan in the furnace costs nothing to power. But for some reason it took software and a fancy display to incorporate a 'smart' function to turn that on/off routinely...

 

[Swerd]

I restate the 'stale air' issue because of how bad the IAQ is in many homes. You have to cycle your air every hour and filter it. The fan in the furnace costs nothing to power. But for some reason it took software and a fancy display to incorporate a 'smart' function to turn that on/off routinely...

I did notice that when you mentioned it earlier, I just don't know enough to respond. I guess I haven't experienced what you describe. In the summer with the AC on, I run the central air handler fan continuously, otherwise I do notice it gets stuffy inside. In the winter, I set the fan to Auto. It runs before, during & after the heat cycle. If I ran the fan while the furnace wasn't burning gas, it would feel drafty.

The mechanical filters I've seen on home systems only remove big hunks of dust, nothing more. I did have those electrostatic air cleaners when I first moved in. They seemed to do a good job of cutting down on dust, but they failed a number of years ago, and those models were no longer made. Replacing them would have been difficult and expensive. I'll look into all that again when the time comes to replace the furnace.

 

[Swerd]

Rant subsiding… still have more to say. OK, I'm calming down, really. All this thinking about thermostats (it really is due to the unfortunately boring Super Bowl) made me look up the features of the new generation smart thermostats. Just so I don't sound like a complete old fool.

I distinctly remember proudly telling my old man how I installed a new digital programmable thermostat in my house in 1984. His first response was… "You have to change batteries in it? How is that any good?" I guess that made him feel old & in the way. He grew up in an old house with a coal burning furnace. His job as a kid was to shovel coal & ashes, and be the thermostat. His idea of a modern thermostat was one of these.

In the late 1970s when energy costs had gone through the roof, people started installing programmable set-back thermostats. The basic idea was burn less fuel and save money. The idea had been around for a long time. There were set-back thermostats as far back as the 1930s. I do remember something like this in my grandparents house (my mother's parents), although I can't say it was programmable in the way we now think of it.

With any set-back thermostat, it is possible to be too ambitious with the program. If the difference between high & low settings is too large, your furnace will have to burn a long time when it's time to warm things up. Also, frequent changes in from high to low, and back, can waste energy. All that depends on the house's heating system and it's insulation. How do you know what settings are reasonable and what are wasteful? Apparently, the latest smart thermostats try to address that. They can keep track of the total hours of usage and make automatic adjustments toward greater efficiency. That's not a bad idea. (I wonder if it's like the efforts to automate home theater audio set-up, like Audyssey. It is at an early stage of success – a work in progress.)

It certainly is better than having a programmable thermostat, and not programming any set back schedule. That, according to my local Heat/AC guy, is what most people seem to do. Kind of like with old VCR's, most people just left the clock blinking on 12 all the time.

So which is worse – having a programmable thermostat and not using it at all, using it too much and wasting energy, or spending over $200 on a first-generation smart thermostat with all the latest bells & whistles?

Rant all done .

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I am on my second Nest thermostat, the first on decided to start heating to 80 and then letting the house cool to 70 before heating to 80 again. It was at least consistent doing that 10 degree swing...

After trying all kinds of router reconfig as instructed by Nest, they ended up sending me a new one last month. In the 7 months of use I haven't really noticed any savings at all.

I read on similar issues on Nest in addition to have too wide temp swings - make it none starter for me.
Like I said Ecobee is currently front runner.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

The mechanical filters I've seen on home systems only remove big hunks of dust, nothing more.

More expensive fiber filter claim to capture pollen and some other smaller particles
http://www.mechreps.com/PDF/Merv_Rating_Chart.pdf