What To Do?

[speakerman39]

Folks as my set-up is slowly coming together, I have been thinking about cancelling my order for the Rhythmik L12. Been told I could get a full refund if I chose to do so. As such, here is what I am considering as alternatives:

http://www.svsound.com/products/sb-1000

The Svs SB-1000 is about the same price as the Rhythmik. SVS also has the best customer service I have ever experienced from ANY company. Ed Mullen, really impresses me as he sure knows his stuff.

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/ed-mullen-director-technology-and-customer-relations-svs#g8ybeI67xdL89cKM.97

The other option I been thinking about is this one:

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls-15mk2.html

The Hsu ULS-15MK2 is more expensive and also much larger. My space is small, so that presents a problem somewhat. If I go this route, I will NOT have the room for duals. So, the question is will one be enough? Personally, I think so.

Then, I been looking at this too:

http://emptek.com/i12.php

Once again this sub is also rather large. Chances are, if I go this route I can only get one. Maybe getting the I-12/e is a better way to go? It is going for $699 whereas the I-12 is only $499. Been reading a lot of good reviews as of late.

So, there YOU are. What should I do? My listening area is ~15' X 12' x 8' or 1440 cubic feet. It may be a while before I can get an L12 from Rythmik. I am getting a little impatient as we speak. If I go with SVS or Rythmik I can get duals. Will NOT be able to do that with the Hsu/EMPtek. Please help! Thank YOU for YOUR time.

Keep in mind, I am looking for punchy, tight, well articulated bass that has distinctness in the transients. Not looking for excessive extension, but I do want decent extension when watching a movie. Controlled sound down low is the key. Musicality is a must.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[shadyJ]

Duals will do more to smooth out the frequency response, but a beast like the ULS-15 will hit really hard. IF you have freedom of placement, I would probably stick with the L12 and add another later. If the available spots do not provide for the response-flattening effects of duals, I would get the ULS-15. I would also think about the Rythmik L22, which should have the same footprint as the L12, but twice the performance.

 

[speakerman39]

Duals will do more to smooth out the frequency response, but a beast like the ULS-15 will hit really hard. IF you have freedom of placement, I would probably stick with the L12 and add another later. If the available spots do not provide for the response-flattening effects of duals, I would get the ULS-15. I would also think about the Rythmik L22, which should have the same footprint as the L12, but twice the performance.

Duals would be great no doubt. But, the Hsu ULS 15 has my attention. So does the I-12/I-12e. The question is, however, how does the Svs SB-1000 compare to the Rhythmik L12? That is what i really need to find out. Have not found much on that one to go by. The L22 is not being considered as i do not care for that kind of design.

Cheers,

Phil

PS: The Rhytmik 15" sealed subs impress me as well. Unfortunately, they are out of my price range. That is why the Hsu ULS-15 has my attention.

 

[KenM10759]

I have an SVS SB1000 and my room is 13.5' x 19' x 7.3', and open on the rear left. Sub is positioned just behind and to the left of the left main front speaker. Great in 1/2 the room, clear null point in right rear. But I still like it. For $200 more, my son & I chipped in together to get him an SVS SB2000. His room is a closed 16' x 25' x 8' with a 6x7 closet in the left rear corner. For his total 2864 cubic feet, the SB2000 spanks my SB1000 in a smaller 1872 cu ft room. I love his! No null points in the main listening area that is the front 1/2 of the room. At all.

If your room is closed, you'll be OK with the SB1000. But just OK, not ideal. By comparison the SB2000 that's just an inch & a half inches bigger (on average) in all dimensions is just so much more sub! We are both big into music, though he watches more movies than me and says it's quite good even for that. Yes, a bigger, more powerful ported sub will go louder and deeper, but we are both impressed with what you get for the money in sound quality.

 

[speakerman39]

I have an SVS SB1000 and my room is 13.5' x 19' x 7.3', and open on the rear left. Sub is positioned just behind and to the left of the left main front speaker. Great in 1/2 the room, clear null point in right rear. But I still like it. For $200 more, my son & I chipped in together to get him an SVS SB2000. His room is a closed 16' x 25' x 8' with a 6x7 closet in the left rear corner. For his total 2864 cubic feet, the SB2000 spanks my SB1000 in a smaller 1872 cu ft room. I love his! No null points in the main listening area that is the front 1/2 of the room. At all.

If your room is closed, you'll be OK with the SB1000. But just OK, not ideal. By comparison the SB2000 that's just an inch & a half inches bigger (on average) in all dimensions is just so much more sub! We are both big into music, though he watches more movies than me and says it's quite good even for that. Yes, a bigger, more powerful ported sub will go louder and deeper, but we are both impressed with what you get for the money in sound quality.

I have owned SVS subs before. Of course, it was in a much larger environment. I never could get the PB12-NSD 10 or the PS10-NSD to sound very musical. Sure, for ht both were great. Hence, that is NOT what I am after. Musicality is a MUST! Extension for HT is not so important. The SB-1000 has me curious lets say. Not too interested in the SB2000 right now. But, thanks for YOUR input.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

Ken, it is funny YOU mentioned/recommended the SB200 sub. I just used the Merlin option on the SVS site and that is exactly what it recommended. Guess, I need to add another sub to my list before deciding what to do. The size of the SB2000 is just right as i would have room for duals. Now as far as budget, that is an entirely different story......LOL!!!!!!

Cheers,

Phil

 

[shadyJ]

Duals would be great no doubt. But, the Hsu ULS 15 has my attention. So does the I-12/I-12e. The question is, however, how does the Svs SB-1000 compare to the Rhythmik L12? That is what i really need to find out. Have not found much on that one to go by. The L22 is not being considered as i do not care for that kind of design.

Cheers,

Phil

PS: The Rhytmik 15" sealed subs impress me as well. Unfortunately, they are out of my price range. That is why the Hsu ULS-15 has my attention.

Between the L12 and SB1000, I would go with the L12, but neither has enough headroom to interest me. Medium xmax 12"s with moderate power handling. I would not expect much from a single one, although duals might be able to move some air. For music, I would toss the I-12 subs out. I don't think it would be any better for music than the Rythmik sub, except below the mid 30 hz region or so, where the ports give it a boost. But Music lay above 40 Hz for the most part. The Hsu will have amazing output above 30 Hz. If you look at available CEA-2010 measurements, it looks to have about double the performance of the SVS SB2000. While it should be capable of 120+ dB in that room, the real advantage of that is extremely low distortion and high linearity at nominal levels. If I were you I would either go with dual L12s for a potentially smoother response, or a single ULS for extremely clean bass with lots of headroom.

 

[speakerman39]

Between the L12 and SB1000, I would go with the L12, but neither has enough headroom to interest me. Medium xmax 12"s with moderate power handling. I would not expect much from a single one, although duals might be able to move some air. For music, I would toss the I-12 subs out. I don't think it would be any better for music than the Rythmik sub, except below the mid 30 hz region or so, where the ports give it a boost. But Music lay above 40 Hz for the most part. The Hsu will have amazing output above 30 Hz. If you look at available CEA-2010 measurements, it looks to have about double the performance of the SVS SB2000. While it should be capable of 120+ dB in that room, the real advantage of that is extremely low distortion and high linearity at nominal levels. If I were you I would either go with dual L12s for a potentially smoother response, or a single ULS for extremely clean bass with lots of headroom.

Shady, I know you have some experience with many of the subs I am considering. Have read YOUR post over at AVS as well. YOU seem to know what YOU are talking about and I respect that. So, why would YOU toss out the I-12/I-12e out altogether? Many on AVS attest to their musicality while being very good with HT. Just curious is all.

I also agree what YOU are saying with the Hsu ULS-15 MK2. Might be a better way to go no doubt. But, if I do I will NOT have the room for another one. I agree headroom/extension is NOT going to be a problem in my small listening area. The real question is, however, will the ULS-15 me musical enough for MY tastes? I am getting more and more picky by the day in that regards. Plus, I would save some money by going with the ULS-15 as opposed to dual L12's.

Lets just say things are looking good for the Hsu ULS-15 right now. I will now take a much more closer look at my listening area for placements purposes. Really appreciate YOUR help bro!

Cheers,

Phil

 

[KEW]

I think musicality between the ULS-15 and the L12 is pretty much a toss up. I'm kind of inclined to believe that by being sealed and servo, the Rythmik is probably a little better; however, I think the sealed ULS-15 is so good you will not likely hear the improvement.
What you are really choosing between is >dual subs which will even out the response across your room< vs. >the extra output of a good 15" sub<.

If you can put your sub wherever you like in the room, chances are you can find a good spot using the crawl with a single sub. However, if you are limited to, say, 2-5 spots where a sub reasonably could go, getting a single is a gamble.
If you want to present quality bass at more than one listening position, duals is good insurance.

So, do I follow right? Rythmik is out of L12 inventory?
Did you check Ascend Acoustics to see if they had stock?
I don't know if Ascend maintains a second inventory in CA or if their orders are fulfilled out of Rythmik in Texas, but you might call Ascend. I can say they are easier to get a hold of and do a better job of order processing, etc. But I would go to Brian for selecting the best product for your situation.
Brian Ding is an impressive sub designer who also deals with customers. He really should get someone else to learn the business and let himself focus on design and technical support.

The ULS-15 is a nice option, but if it eliminates the prospect of Dual subs, it would not be MY choice.

 

[KEW]

For his total 2864 cubic feet, the SB2000 spanks my SB1000 in a smaller 1872 cu ft room. I love his! No null points in the main listening area that is the front 1/2 of the room. At all.

The sub is incapable of creating or eliminating null points, it is the room (or the placement in the room) that makes the difference in the existence of nulls.
I'll bet your SB1000 in his room will spank your SB1000 in your room (aside from the SPL issue)!
Try your sub in his room, you may not be able to crank it, but very likely you will find it has better overall sound quality.
Also, his SB2000 will sound poor in your room. You should order a second SB1000 from SVS as a test and see how much improvement in the bass it provides in your room.

 

[speakerman39]

I think musicality between the ULS-15 and the L12 is pretty much a toss up. I'm kind of inclined to believe that by being sealed and servo, the Rythmik is probably a little better; however, I think the sealed ULS-15 is so good you will not likely hear the improvement.
What you are really choosing between is >dual subs which will even out the response across your room< vs. >the extra output of a good 15" sub<.

If you can put your sub wherever you like in the room, chances are you can find a good spot using the crawl with a single sub. However, if you are limited to, say, 2-5 spots where a sub reasonably could go, getting a single is a gamble.
If you want to present quality bass at more than one listening position, duals is good insurance.

So, do I follow right? Rythmik is out of L12 inventory?
Did you check Ascend Acoustics to see if they had stock?
I don't know if Ascend maintains a second inventory in CA or if their orders are fulfilled out of Rythmik in Texas, but you might call Ascend. I can say they are easier to get a hold of and do a better job of order processing, etc. But I would go to Brian for selecting the best product for your situation.
Brian Ding is an impressive sub designer who also deals with customers. He really should get someone else to learn the business and let himself focus on design and technical support.

The ULS-15 is a nice option, but if it eliminates the prospect of Dual subs, it would not be MY choice.

Yeah Kurt, YOU got is summed up right. It is either I go with a single ULS-15 or dual L12's. I took a much closer look at my listening area and with some more positioning I can fit dual ULS-15's. It is a bit of a challenge, but certainly possible. However, the bigger challenge is BUDGET.

I can save some money by just getting a single ULS-15. Like YOU said, it is a bit of a gamble. Perhaps, one I am willing to take. Down the road, I may can get another. BTW, do YOU know anything about the EMPtek I-12 or the I-12/e? Just curious is all.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

I think musicality between the ULS-15 and the L12 is pretty much a toss up. I'm kind of inclined to believe that by being sealed and servo, the Rythmik is probably a little better; however, I think the sealed ULS-15 is so good you will not likely hear the improvement.
What you are really choosing between is >dual subs which will even out the response across your room< vs. >the extra output of a good 15" sub<.

If you can put your sub wherever you like in the room, chances are you can find a good spot using the crawl with a single sub. However, if you are limited to, say, 2-5 spots where a sub reasonably could go, getting a single is a gamble.
If you want to present quality bass at more than one listening position, duals is good insurance.

So, do I follow right? Rythmik is out of L12 inventory?
Did you check Ascend Acoustics to see if they had stock?
I don't know if Ascend maintains a second inventory in CA or if their orders are fulfilled out of Rythmik in Texas, but you might call Ascend. I can say they are easier to get a hold of and do a better job of order processing, etc. But I would go to Brian for selecting the best product for your situation.
Brian Ding is an impressive sub designer who also deals with customers. He really should get someone else to learn the business and let himself focus on design and technical support.

The ULS-15 is a nice option, but if it eliminates the prospect of Dual subs, it would not be MY choice.

BTW Kurt, Ascend does NOT stock any of the Rythmik subs. They ship directly from Rythmik in Texas. There is no doubt that the sealed 15" Rythmik subs would be the way for me to go, but unfortunately they are out of my budget range. I think the Hsu ULS-12MK2 is a good alternative or dual L12's. However, dual L12's costs more money overall. It is a tough decision.

There is also a difference in drivers to consider here. The Hsu ULS 15" driver is a much better driver than that used in the Rythmik L12. I would have to step up to the F12 to make things more even in that regard. But, the F12 costs more than the ULS-15MK2. Dr. Hsu has nipped it in the bud so to speak. He surely has done his homework that is for sure.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[shadyJ]

Shady, I know you have some experience with many of the subs I am considering. Have read YOUR post over at AVS as well. YOU seem to know what YOU are talking about and I respect that. So, why would YOU toss out the I-12/I-12e out altogether? Many on AVS attest to their musicality while being very good with HT. Just curious is all.

I also agree what YOU are saying with the Hsu ULS-15 MK2. Might be a better way to go no doubt. But, if I do I will NOT have the room for another one. I agree headroom/extension is NOT going to be a problem in my small listening area. The real question is, however, will the ULS-15 me musical enough for MY tastes? I am getting more and more picky by the day in that regards. Plus, I would save some money by going with the ULS-15 as opposed to dual L12's.

Lets just say things are looking good for the Hsu ULS-15 right now. I will now take a much more closer look at my listening area for placements purposes. Really appreciate YOUR help bro!

Cheers,

Phil

I would toss out the I-12, because what will make the biggest difference for the stuff you are listening too will be the quality of the driver, as long as the amp is not completely awful. I don't think the I-12 driver will match that of the L12 or especially that of the ULS-15. You won't be taking that much advantage of the ported aspects of the I-12. I should say that if you are only ever going to listen at modest volumes, the Hsu may not have an advantage over the L12. At modest volumes, a more even frequency response from good dual sub placement will be a much more audible advantage than a single powerful sub. Nonetheless, I would try to go for the ULS-15s, even if you don't take advantage of their capabilities, because I have a pair of ULS-15 mk1s in a room about as large as yours although not quite the same dimensions, and I would absolutely not want to trade them for any 12"s, no way in hell! That is a personal preference though, and the Hsu system may not make as much sense for you. Between the Rythmik and Hsu, you can't go wrong though, I know you will like whatever you end up with.

 

[KEW]

Sorry, I've never heard the EMPtek subs.

 

[speakerman39]

I would toss out the I-12, because what will make the biggest difference for the stuff you are listening too will be the quality of the driver, as long as the amp is not completely awful. I don't think the I-12 driver will match that of the L12 or especially that of the ULS-15. You won't be taking that much advantage of the ported aspects of the I-12. I should say that if you are only ever going to listen at modest volumes, the Hsu may not have an advantage over the L12. At modest volumes, a more even frequency response from good dual sub placement will be a much more audible advantage than a single powerful sub. Nonetheless, I would try to go for the ULS-15s, even if you don't take advantage of their capabilities, because I have a pair of ULS-15 mk1s in a room about as large as yours although not quite the same dimensions, and I would absolutely not want to trade them for any 12"s, no way in hell! That is a personal preference though, and the Hsu system may not make as much sense for you. Between the Rythmik and Hsu, you can't go wrong though, I know you will like whatever you end up with.

With some rearranging per se I could make room for dual ULS-15's. The problem is MY budget. Dual ULS-15's is considerably more than dual L12's. Of course, I could get a ULS-15 now, then later down the road get another, no? I also am a little concerned that living in a small apartment dual 15" subs would be overkill.

I plan to listen to my sub(s) at maybe a bit more than modest volumes. Certainly, not at very loud levels. Occasionally, I may want to rock out a bit. Especially, if the my apartment manger is gone for a weekend trip....LOL!!!! But, I am more about bass quality than I am quantity. The only thing is, when it is real good I am sure I will want MORE!

YOU mention quality of drivers. It is easy to see the Hsu 15" driver is far superior to the 12" L12 driver. The 15" driver uses a die-cast basket and a fiber glass reinforced cone. The L12 12" driver is made of a paper cone. Not sure if it uses a die-cast basket or not. I think I have to step up to the F12 to get a driver that is more on par with the 15" Hsu driver. However, the F12 is also more expensive than the ULS-15.

Lastly, the I-12/I-12e both use an aluminum driver that typically is better than just a paper cone driver. I know that is NOT always the case, but from what I have read the I-12 uses a pretty good aluminum driver. Of the subs I am considering, the L12 uses the cheapest driver if I understand correctly. I could be wrong though. Just am NOT too fond of paper cones and stamped steal baskets.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

YOU know I am wondering why none here is recommending the SVS SB1000 or even the SVS SB2000? I have read several times that many feel as though the Rythmik LV12R is every bit as good as the SB2000 but only cheaper. The SB2000 is $699 whereas the LV12R is $569 shipped! But, it too is out of stock. There is no reason for me to buy the SB2000 if the LV12R is just as good.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[KEW]

Maybe you should revisit the SVS SB2000.
The ULS-15 MK2 is $850 shipped.
The SB2000 is $700 shipped, $1300 gets a pair.

ShadyJ says the Hsu has twice the performance, but I believe the SB2000 is enough, for your room.

But the real reason to consider SVS is they have a 45 day audition policy with free return shipping.
Talk to Ed Mullen about your previous experience with SVS subs and lack of musicality (I had a similar experience with an SVS SB12Plus). See how Ed responds.
I'm a little sketchy on this (Shady, please correct me if I am wrong), but I think their older non-DSP subs were prone to low-frequency ringing from the analog EQ used in the effort to get flat response to 20Hz.

I really do believe dual L12's are probably the best fit for you, but if they are off the table, the SB2000 offer you the opportunity to audition; and, at the end of the day, that may just be the most important feature you need right now!

If you can swing it, order dual SB2000's. One should be enough for your room, but you can see what adding a second does. If it doesn't seem to make much difference, return the second. If they repeat your "lack of musicality" experience with the earlier SVS subs, return both of them.

 

[KEW]

There is no reason for me to buy the SB2000 if the LV12R is just as good.

I was typing while you posted your last post.
I think it is clear from my response, but the reason to buy the SB2000 is because you can buy two and decide if the second is warranted without a penalty.
Hell, if you decide on duals, you can return the second and buy it later after your budget has recuperated, But the ability to make an choice informed by experience in your room is worth a lot, IMHO.

 

[speakerman39]

I was typing while you posted your last post.
I think it is clear from my response, but the reason to buy the SB2000 is because you can buy two and decide if the second is warranted without a penalty.
Hell, if you decide on duals, you can return the second and buy it later after your budget has recuperated, But the ability to make an choice informed by experience in your room is worth a lot, IMHO.

Well Kurt I admit I am a little concerned about my past experience with SVS. Not in so much as I got mistreated, but more with respect to musicality. In fact, SVS has the best customer service I have ever seen from any company period. Ed Mullen, worked with me and even called me a time or two. That really impressed me.

The thing is, I am a little older and gotten very picky about what I like. Having owned the PB10 and PB12 neither were musical in MY listening area no matter what I did or where I placed them. But hey, as far as HT goes, they both excelled! So, it all would be good if that is what I was after-I am NOT!

I want a sub that delivers on BOTH ends. That being very musical AND offers good extension for HT purposes. The latter of which is least important to me. In other words, I will gladly give up some extension in order to gain in tightness, articulation, punchiness, and etc. But, I want to also hear distinction in the transients-no one note wonder for me! Hearing the bass player fingers on the strings is what I am after!

I have had the pleasure of owning duals. First, I had a set of AR 8" subs that was absolutely awesome. Very musical yet decent extension for HT. But, what I liked the most is how the bass was more uniform even at lower volumes. Evening out the bass response is a BIG plus.

The 2nd time I had duals, I owned the Outlaw LFM-1Pluses. Talking about packing a punch. The room was very small-even smaller than the one I have now. Musically, both did a great job but at times there was some bloat. This was mainly due to the Pluses being in such a small room with very little placements options.

Either way I go, I will have duals one way or another. Keep in mind, that the Hsu VTF3 MK3 was by far the BEST sub I have ever owned. There is no doubt in my mind that the ULS-15 is my best option. However, dual ULS-15's in my room will surely be overkill. Plus, I also reside in such a small apartment. Perhaps, one will be enough.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[shadyJ]

I don't think cone material makes a difference for this application. If you were going to cross the sub over extremely high, maybe they would, but that would be crazy, of course, and you would want to be looking at mid-bass drivers at that point. The difference cone composition makes would come about in higher frequencies. As for cast basket vs stamped steel basket, I have read that mostly only makes a difference past a certain amount of excursion. Here is a very good article about this stuff. There are examples of subs which have paper cones and stamped baskets which also have excellent performance. For a higher excursion driver, I would be looking at cast baskets.

As for ringing in SVS's older analogue amps, I don't know about that, but anytime you put in filters, you introduce group delay and phase issues. It doesn't matter if it is analogue or digital. Digital might give you finer control to mitigate these issues. What matters is, is it audible? I would guess not, especially after room acoustics and any equalization has taken their toll. I wouldn't be worried about the SVS subs. If that is a concern, I would definitely go for the SB2000 over the SB1000; when you compare their responses you can see the SB1000 is using a high pass filter, but the SB2000 exhibits a more natural roll-off which looks less interfered with by filters. Note the group delay of the older SB12 NSD which uses a strict high pass filter vs the SB13 Ultra's group delay which doesn't have that stringent low pass filter. It also shows up in the impulse response measurements.

Are 2 ULS-15s overkill in a small apartment? Hell yes! Still, it would be a killer system, I know, because I am listening to such a system right now! Honestly, you would probably be fine with two L12s or SB2000s, but, like I said before, in your choices it is hard to recommend anything else because the ULS's are so badass. In a small room, I bet you would be looking at low distortion even at THX Reference levels, at least for bass. You say the VTF3 mk3 is the best sounding sub you have heard, well I have two VTF3 mk3s, and two ULS-15s, the ULS-15s are definitely the better choice for music.