A speakers' amplifier power rating

[fmw]

Sams, I would recommend the same subs mentioned upthread, and base your decision on overall room volume you're trying to fill. Multiple subs is not about added output, but smoother response over more of the room. A pair of sufficiently powered 15's from the usual suspects would be a good place to start. As for equal loudness back at the billiards table, perhaps a pair of zone 2 speakers back there.

fmw, I completely agree that actual measurements trump any calculated guestimate, but the OP doesn't yet have an spl meter, and probably lacks an appropriate multimeter too. But it's still just a guess. I used the myhometheater calculator which gives about 4db/m loss with distance, so there is what seems reasonable room gain factored in. Without it, he'll need 300 w to hit the same spl at the same distance, and that's well in the red for both amps and speakers. He could very well be clipping his amps when trying to listen loudly, even with some room gain, particularly if trying to achieve similar volumes back at the billiards table! LOUD seems to have him bumping up against the limits, amp, speaker, or both, but at least he's taken to heart "if it sounds bad turn it down immediately" advice. Proper subwoofage seems the obvious low hanging fruit, and would likely transform his enjoyment enough that he could live happily within the limits of his Revels.

The loss in my room is 2db per meter. You really have to measure it. Otherwise, just buy some stuff and enjoy the music.

 

[PENG]

At -5db on the receiver after a short bit the highs begin to hurt so I always settle on -10db or lower. I suspect I'm craving more volume because I want more dynamics, thinking volume will give me that.

I'll give the pink noise test a try with an spl meter asap. I'm guessing I should wear ear plugs when doing this?

Your receiver can output 150WX2 at 0.005% THD+N so it shouldn't be clipping if you sit 10' from the speakers. The myhometheater online calculator allows for about 6 dB room gain in your environment so you should in fact be hitting THX with volume at 0 if you have run Audyssey correctly.

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-4520ci-av-receiver-test-bench#zhippXIdEWLtGkL0.97

Before you do anything else please try the following settings:

1. Audyssey L/R bypass.
2. L/R crossover to 80 Hz.
3. LPF = 120 Hz
4 Select bass to LFE, not LFE+Main
5. Select Dynamic EQ on
6. Make sure Dynamic volume is off

Also try stereo with Audyssey off, and on but not Audyssey Flat. You may find one combination that can offer you the best dynamic and least discomfort.

Regardless, I can tell you at volume at -5, I have to turn it down after a few seconds too, and I have 5 subs, and two power amps + a Marantz AV8801 prepro. -5 is just way too loud, uncomfortably loud to the point it does not need to clip to cause discomfort to me.

Edit: I forgot to mention, if you want to hit THX (85 dB avg 105 dB peak) everywhere in that large room the F12 and the 4520CI are not going to do it for you. The largest Klipsch may get you close. You should also try some proven high quality recording such as some 24/192 digital files from HDTrack of just download their demos. You may find them more acceptable to your ears even at volume -5.

 

[ski2xblack]

[still OT] Those Voltis are La Scala clones, er, interpretations. They are indeed quite good interpretations of the horn approach, and not too shabby in the sonics department; open, airy, supremely effortless, very lifelike dynamics.

[Back on topic] Sams, on point one, there is a point where flogging the speakers with more power exceeds their capacity and becomes self defeating. That's the point where speakers capable of higher output come into the picture. Now, you should be able to get to THX reference levels at the main listening position with what you have. Keep in mind that such levels are quite spirited, stirring levels. Too loud for extended listening IMO. It's loud.

 

[markw]

It sounds like it might be safer to get more dynamics in my system than try to buy enough power to fill my space. What's the best way of doing that? Should I be looking at horn speakers, or speakers with many drivers like high end rbh or the Boston acoustics m350? Or 15/18" subs?

Right now my system is flat, regardless of what's playing. I think that's why I feel I'm running out of volume at the theater seating(even though I really can't creep to thx reference). I could give up trying to fill the billiards area if it requires 1200 watts of amplification(sounds like I would need a pro amp stack).

Personally, I'd be looking for more sensitive speakers. That's the db/watt spec. The higher, the better.

If a speaker is 3 db more efficient, it will need half the power to attain a similar volume. 6 db, and you'll need one quarter the power to attain a similar volume.

As I said earlier, each speaker sounds different and you'll have to listen to 'em to see if you like them or not. More efficient speakers are out there but I really can't name any besides the aforementioned Klipsch.

Perhaps others can add to that list.

But, for that gut wrenching bass you seem to need, count on a few subwoofers as well.

 

[PENG]

No wonder everything seems familiar, I just realize we are rehashing some of the stuff covered in another thread.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/messy-at-loud-volumes.96873/

 

[Sams]

[still OT] Those Voltis are La Scala clones, er, interpretations. They are indeed quite good interpretations of the horn approach, and not too shabby in the sonics department; open, airy, supremely effortless, very lifelike dynamics.

[Back on topic] Sams, on point one, there is a point where flogging the speakers with more power exceeds their capacity and becomes self defeating. That's the point where speakers capable of higher output come into the picture. Now, you should be able to get to THX reference levels at the main listening position with what you have. Keep in mind that such levels are quite spirited, stirring levels. Too loud for extended listening IMO. It's loud.

Well I'm glad you guys think thx reference is just really loud.

No wonder everything seems familiar, I just realize we are rehashing some of the stuff covered in another thread.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/messy-at-loud-volumes.96873/

I'm ready to make my next purchase and I was prepared to buy new speakers with double the amplifier power rating and this thread just kind of became part 2.

I'm glad to hear that thx reference level is just extremely loud though, and theres no shame not being able to play at that volume...whether it's just too loud to bear, my amp clipping, or speakers being overdriven.

I still run out of volume when listening to music about 25+ feet away at the billiards table, making more the efficient speaker suggestions intriguing.

 

[markw]

I still run out of volume when listening to music about 25+ feet away at the billiards table, making more the efficient speaker suggestions intriguing.

TWENTY FIVE FEET???

Dude, you're not looking at home/consumer gear. You should be looking at professional sound reinforcement gear.

 

[PENG]

Well I'm glad you guys think thx reference is just really loud.


I'm ready to make my next purchase and I was prepared to buy new speakers with double the amplifier power rating and this thread just kind of became part 2.

I'm glad to hear that thx reference level is just extremely loud though, and theres no shame not being able to play at that volume...whether it's just too loud to bear, my amp clipping, or speakers being overdriven.

I still run out of volume when listening to music about 25+ feet away at the billiards table, making more the efficient speaker suggestions intriguing.

Please try some of these and see if they sound acceptable with volume set to -10 or even -5 sitting 10 to 12 ft. Seriously with your 4520 and F12, they should sound pretty good.

http://www.2l.no/hires/

From 25 ft, I have to agree with Mark, better go pro, or at least the 98 dB/2.83V/m speakers such as Klipsch's, plus very capable subs. That's only if you insist on ear damaging sustained THX standard of 85 avg 105 dB peak. For what you have now, you can still get 70dB avg 90dB peak, still too loud for most people.