Matching Receiver/Amplifier specs for given Speakers

[gankum]

Hello

Here's my WIP 5.1 HT system,
Front Left & Right = Focal Chorus 826V
Center channel = Focal Chorus CC800V
Subwoofer ( planning ) = JL Audio e110
Surround rear ( planning ) = Either Focal Chorus SR700(difficult choice for my room) or Focal Chorus 706(BookShelf). Not 100% sure how these bookshelf speakers will perform as rear surrounds = probably will open a separate thread for it.


Now for the AVR , believe I need to ensure impedence & power ratings of the AVR can support the speakers and provide enough power. Does Subwoofers specs also have an effect on receiver selection?

Here are the specs, I've gathered from the manufacturer's documentation,

826V:
------
Frequency response (+/- 3dB) 45Hz - 28kHz
Low frequency point (- 6dB) 37Hz
Sensitivity (2.83V/1m) 91.5dB
Nom. impedance 8 ohms
Minimum impedance (@25°C) 2.9 ohms @ 118Hz
Max. power handling. 220W
Power RMS 150W
Crossover frequency 300Hz / 3kHz

CC800V:
---------
Frequency response (+/- 3dB) 57Hz - 28kHz
Low frequency point (- 6dB) 50Hz
Sensitivity (2.83V/1m) 91dB
Nom. impedance 8 ohms
Minimum impedance (@25°C) 4 ohms @ 210Hz
Max. power handling. 150W
Power RMS 100W
Crossover frequency 3kHz

Chorus 706:
----------------
Frequency response (+/- 3dB) 55Hz - 28kHz
Low frequency point - 6dB 47Hz
Sensivity (2.83V / 1m) 90dB
Nom. impedance 8 Ohms
Minimum impedance 3,6 Ohms
Recommended amplifier power 25 - 120W
Crossover frequency 3000Hz

Marantz SR7010:
------------------
Number of Poweramps 9
Power Output Per Channel
Maximum Power Output Per Channel 235 W
6 ohm, 1 kHz. 0.7%, 2ch Drive 165 W
8 ohm, 20Hz - 20kHz, 0.05%, 2ch Drive 125 W
Audio Signal to Noise Ratio 100 dB

Need your help in matching up the numbers here.
Should I be only considering the normal impedance of the speakers(8 ohms) and use the slated power output of the receiver (125W)? ..in which I am fine here, as the FR/FL tower speakers are rated adequately(power rms 150W and max power 220W). Also should I be looking at Power RMS or Max Power of the Speaker?

Where does the minimum impedance come into play ? ( the 826V has minimum impedance of 2.9 ohms and Center has 4 ohms , but the receiver goes down to only 6 ohms..should I be concerned)

Also the max power o/p per channel on the receiver is 235W ..above what the speakers can support . Should I be concerned.

If I were to use Chorus 706 bookshelf for rear surrounds , will it handle the receiver o/p safely? ( manufacturer quote "Recommended amplifier power 25 - 120W" , while Marantz exceeds that(125W, 165W etc)..

Please advice, appreciate your help

thanks

 

[fmw]

Any receiver should be fine in a normal sized home listening room. You won't use all the available power from the receiver. Don't worry about that.

 

[gankum]

Just wanted to add one thing on the Marantz SR7010 receiver specs. Marantz also says this "Rated at 125 watts per channel (8 ohms, .05%, 20Hz~20kHz), the SR7010 has the ability to drive lower impedance 4 ohm speakers on all channels."

The FR/FL speakers seem they can go down to 2.9 ohms and the surround can go down to 3 ohms .., so making sure the Marantz can deliver enough power for this impedance on the speakers , without overheating or other issues.

On the other side, if the impedance drops to 6 ohms, looks like the receiver needs to supply 165W which is more than what the speaker(FR/FL , Power RMS 150W , CC800V max power handling 150W) can support. Is this still ok?

Thanks

 

[fmw]

I stand by what I said. We work with nominal impedance, not lowest impedance. Stop reading internet misinformation and enjoy the system.

 

[highfigh]

Just wanted to add one thing on the Marantz SR7010 receiver specs. Marantz also says this "Rated at 125 watts per channel (8 ohms, .05%, 20Hz~20kHz), the SR7010 has the ability to drive lower impedance 4 ohm speakers on all channels."

The FR/FL speakers seem they can go down to 2.9 ohms and the surround can go down to 3 ohms .., so making sure the Marantz can deliver enough power for this impedance on the speakers , without overheating or other issues.

On the other side, if the impedance drops to 6 ohms, looks like the receiver needs to supply 165W which is more than what the speaker(FR/FL , Power RMS 150W , CC800V max power handling 150W) can support. Is this still ok?

Thanks

At any given output voltage, don't think about Watts, think about current. If you won't listen at high SPL, it's really not a big deal for most receivers.

You need to define the way(s) the system will be used and if possible, include the desired SPL. That and some minor cypherin' and guzintas (Jethro Bodine terminology, if you're not familiar) will tell you what you need to know.

As fmw posted, enjoy the system but if you plan to treat it like a farm animal, make sure to cool it well.

 

[gankum]

Thanks both for the responses..

Is there anyway to quantify this "If you won't listen at high SPL, it's really not a big deal for most receivers."
(ie how high is high and how do I measure )...I listen at moderate levels most of the time, but occasionally I do like to crank it up and want to make sure it doesn't clip or affect the receiver or speaker.

On a related note, if I were to add a power amp in the future, how do I go about it , for this combination(Marantz/Focal).

Thanks

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

7010 Does have pre-outs so adding an amp later on would be possible. I would recommend using something like XPA-3 to power lcr and keep avr to power much less demanding (power wise) surrounds.

I do agree fmw and highfigh - for normal levels listening 7010 should be fine, but your speakers are not exactly high efficiency either 88db and min impedance of 3.3ohm in mid bass - they certainly could use an amp if your room is large and you like it extra loud.

One suggestions - Nothing wrong with JL e110 subs for it's size/performance but where it fails is performance/dollar. This same priced dual sub package will give you a) MUCH more bass and b) more even across the room
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls-15mk2Dual.html

 

[PENG]

Thanks both for the responses..

Is there anyway to quantify this "If you won't listen at high SPL, it's really not a big deal for most receivers."

Yes, but only roughly and good enough to use as guideline. You can google for online SPL calculators such as this: http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

(ie how high is high and how do I measure )...I listen at moderate levels most of the time, but occasionally I do like to crank it up and want to make sure it doesn't clip or affect the receiver or speaker.

You can measure it with one of this: http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/spl-meter_e.html
The analog version is good if you can find one. With such a meter, set it to C weighting, then you can quantify for us what you meant by "moderate levels" For me, moderate levels are between 67-75 dB C weighting, for others it could be higher, so you never know

On a related note, if I were to add a power amp in the future, how do I go about it , for this combination(Marantz/Focal).

See BSA's post#7, the bottom line is, if you sit 3-4 meters from those Focal speakers and want to get 75 dB average, 100 dB maximum peaks; and your room size is smaller than say 3000 cu.ft, the SR7010 can do fine on its own. Adding a robust two channel 300 WPC power amp for the 826V would be good as it would give you a few more dB of headroom and keep the SR7010 cool when you decide to crank things up occasionally. I wouldn't bother with those 3X200WPC (sorry BSA) amps as they don't give you much more than the SR7010. It is better to concentrate your resource on those relatively power hungry 826Vs.

 

[gankum]

I do agree fmw and highfigh - for normal levels listening 7010 should be fine, but your speakers are not exactly high efficiency either 88db and min impedance of 3.3ohm in mid bass - they certainly could use an amp if your room is large and you like it extra loud.

Thanks. Where do you see the speakers rated 88db and min impedance of 3.3 ohm? ..All the speakers are 90db+ , from what I saw.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Thanks. Where do you see the speakers rated 88db and min impedance of 3.3 ohm? ..All the speakers are 90db+ , from what I saw.

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/focal-chorus-800-v-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures#9A1ibASeL62Kctqr.97

 

[gankum]

See BSA's post#7, the bottom line is, if you sit 3-4 meters from those Focal speakers and want to get 75 dB average, 100 dB maximum peaks; and your room size is smaller than say 3000 cu.ft, the SR7010 can do fine on its own. Adding a robust two channel 300 WPC power amp for the 826V would be good as it would give you a few more dB of headroom and keep the SR7010 cool when you decide to crank things up occasionally. I wouldn't bother with those 3X200WPC (sorry BSA) amps as they don't give you much more than the SR7010. It is better to concentrate your resource on those relatively power hungry 826Vs.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Based on all your feedback, is it fair to say I can even go with Marantz 6010 ( I am not planning to going to go beyond 5.1 anytime soon, don't need Auro 3D, single zone only etc) and put the difference in cost towards a power amplifier ?

Maybe I am not looking properly, but can you point me to some decent Power amplifiers ( max $1000) just for the front channels, that'd help reduce the load on the AVR. Have never used a dedicated power amp before..what factors do I need to consider(besides the power o/p) when finding a suitable amp for my Marantz AVR(6010 or 7010).

Appreciate all your inputs.

 

[gankum]

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/focal-chorus-800-v-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures#9A1ibASeL62Kctqr.97

Thank you, thats really useful. Can you provide your thoughts on my previous question on power-amp. If I were to look into amp, can I just use them for say, just the LCR and skip sub & surround or better to invest in amp that can power all channels(5.1).

Also, what if any compatibility checks are required to match-up with the AVR . Believe the impedance matching with receivers & power amp needs to be done, neverthless.

 

[PENG]

Thanks for the suggestion.

Based on all your feedback, is it fair to say I can even go with Marantz 6010 ( I am not planning to going to go beyond 5.1 anytime soon, don't need Auro 3D, single zone only etc) and put the difference in cost towards a power amplifier ?

Maybe I am not looking properly, but can you point me to some decent Power amplifiers ( max $1000) just for the front channels, that'd help reduce the load on the AVR. Have never used a dedicated power amp before..what factors do I need to consider(besides the power o/p) when finding a suitable amp for my Marantz AVR(6010 or 7010).

Appreciate all your inputs.

Actually if you only need a basic 5.1 or 7.1, the best deals are the Denon AVR-X4100W and Marantz SR7009. I just installed a 5.1 system based on the SR-7009 and 4 ohm Monitor Audio speakers in a very large room. They are doing fine with the help of two SVS subwoofers.

The SR7009 and X4100W are going to have better preamp sections (and DACs) than the lower models. You can get the SR7009 for less money than the SR6010.

If you really want to have peace of mind on the power side, just get a XPA-2 or Parasound 2250 to drive the L/R, never mind the C and surrounds, the 7009 will drive them easily.

The Marantz AVRs pre-outs typically can output >2V unclipped so any power amps that offer >27dB gain with input sensitivity <2V should work.

http://www.amazon.com/Parasound-250-Watt-Ultra2-Two-Channel-Amplifier/dp/B003E5T36K/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1450820691&sr=1-3&keywords=parasound+a23

http://emotiva.com/products/amplifiers/xpa-2

Or, the Outlaw that offers flexible monoblock approach (out of stock at the moment though).

https://outlawaudio.com/products/2200.html

The Marantz should be able to drive any of the 3 (especially the Parasound the Emo) easily to their rated power output and beyond.

 

[gankum]

"Actually if you only need a basic 5.1 or 7.1, the best deals are the Denon AVR-X4100W and Marantz SR7009. I just installed a 5.1 system based on the SR-7009 and 4 ohm Monitor Audio speakers in a very large room."

True, but I need HDMI 2.0a and HDCP 2.2 compatibility and hence the 2015 model( I was waiting for them,infact).

The Emotiva XPA-2 & XPA-3 looks great (going through the reviews now), thanks for the suggestion. Don't think I want to add multiple monoblock amps for what I am doing.

looking at the XPA-3 specs,
"

• 330 watts RMS @ 4 ohm (<0.1% THD)
  200 watts RMS @ 8 ohm (<0.1% THD)
• Rated power bandwidth: 20 Hz to 20 kHz +/- .075 dB
• Minimum Recommended Load: 4 Ohms"

just confirming this is still fine when the speakers dip below 4 ohms ( 826V can dip to 2.9 ohms) ? ( sorry, I am just being extra careful, I guess).

Thanks again...

 

[PENG]

True, but I need HDMI 2.0a and HDCP 2.2 compatibility and hence the 2015 model( I was waiting for them,infact).

It is your money, but I strongly suggest you consider why you need HDCP 2.2. If it is only for you to connect your media player such as a Blu Ray player, you can buy a HDCP 2.2 player that has two HDMI outputs so that you can use one to connect directly to your TV for video and the other one to the AVR for audio only. Most TVs do have at least two HDMI inputs. That is a very minor inconvenience but then you won't have to be force to pay for features in the 2015 AVRs that you don't need. It seems a real pity to pay more for the 6010 when the 7009 (top line model) is essentially a 7010 less the HDCP 2.2 and a couple of surround features you don't plan on using.

looking at the XPA-3 specs,

• 330 watts RMS @ 4 ohm (<0.1% THD)
  200 watts RMS @ 8 ohm (<0.1% THD)
• Rated power bandwidth: 20 Hz to 20 kHz +/- .075 dB
• Minimum Recommended Load: 4 Ohms"

just confirming this is still fine when the speakers dip below 4 ohms ( 826V can dip to 2.9 ohms) ? ( sorry, I am just being extra careful, I guess).

The XPA-2 has a much larger power supply transformer than the XPA-3, 600 kVA vs 283 kVA per channel. The 2.9 ohm dip is just the lowest point at a very narrow frequency range. Even the AVR alone can handle it with ease at normal listening level in a small to medium size room. With the help of a two channel power amp and subwoofer(s), the power supply for the 7010 can drive the centre channel with ease, as the surround channels typically don't draw a lot of current.

IMHO, if you are going to add an amp just for peace of mind, and you said you wanted to be extra careful, then go for the XPA-2. It should get you more than 3 dB gain of headroom. The XPA-3 won't make much of a difference for you in practical term except for listening to compressed music at high spl. Even with the XPA-2, aside from the natural and unavoidable Placebo effect, you will appreciate its power reserve only when you push your limit on SPL that you can tolerate and during the very occasional extreme peaks in classical music and/or explosions in movies. Note that your speakers can only handle 220W max, so they could probably maintain their composure for 500W instantaneous peaks or may be not..

 

[gankum]

I see your point about directly routing the 4K video to the TV..and split the audio through the receiver. I guess its just more convenient switching all inputs through the receiver. (unless you tell me the receiver can alter video signals from the 4K player )

Given that XPA-3 is sold out(emotive,amazon), I'm going back & forth between XPA-2 and XPA-5. Looks like I may not need all the power of XPA-2 and XPA-5 , although lower powered , covers LCR , with room to spare. The 826Vs handles only 220W max. I am into movies 60% and think the center might be served by the amp too(with XPA-5).

Thanks..

 

[PENG]

I see your point about directly routing the 4K video to the TV..and split the audio through the receiver. I guess its just more convenient switching all inputs through the receiver. (unless you tell me the receiver can alter video signals from the 4K player )

Given that XPA-3 is sold out(emotive,amazon), I'm going back & forth between XPA-2 and XPA-5. Looks like I may not need all the power of XPA-2 and XPA-5 , although lower powered , covers LCR , with room to spare. The 826Vs handles only 220W max. I am into movies 60% and think the center might be served by the amp too(with XPA-5).

Thanks..

I am not going to tell you the receiver would degrade the video, but I would say the direct route in theory should be better.

Regarding the XPA-2 vs XPA-3 vs XPA-5, the XPA-5 makes the least sense. It has the lowest kVA per channel, same size power supply as the XPA-2 but spread out over 5 channels instead of two.

Again, anything like the SR7010, Denon X4200W and above, will have no problem driving the C, SL, SR. The SL, SR channels are not demanding at all, especially when you set the crossover to 80 or 90 Hz. People easily get tempted by the apparently better power to price ratio of the XPA-5, forgetting that if music sound quality is your priority, focus on the front L,R. The XPA-5 has very little more power to offer than a top model AVR when use for two channel stereo enjoyment. Bench test results confirmed that time and again.

 

[gankum]

Understand. Will your recommendation be XPA-2 still, even if the split between movies & 2ch-music is higher on the movies side and 826V cannot handle more than 220W?

 

[TLS Guy]

Understand. Will your recommendation be XPA-2 still, even if the split between movies & 2ch-music is higher on the movies side and 826V cannot handle more than 220W?

I think you would be wise to consider external amplification for your front stage.

This is the impedance curve and phase angles for your proposed mains.

As you can see nominal impedance means nothing.

Impedance is at or below 4 ohms from 90 Hz to 500 Hz. This is were most of the power demands are. However it is worse than it looks as the phase angle is in very negative territory where the measured impedance is in the four ohm range. This means the actual impedance the amp sees will be lower then the measured impedance.

This type of picture is common in 3 way speakers with a low crossover point to multiple woofers. These type of designs tend to be among the hardest loads amps get presented with.

If you keep the volume low you will be OK. However at times I would bet, like the rest of us you will open it up.

John Atkinson recommends robust amplification for these speakers and I would agree.

Three ways are a difficult case. This speaker seems to be good value for money. Mitigating this impedance/phase angle would have added complexity to the crossover and raised the price point significantly.

With these type if designs I do work to mitigate this situation, but it adds to the part count significantly in the crossover as a rule.

Unfortunately in the real world there are not enough customers able to spot the fact that a more expensive speaker could obviate the need for costly extra amplification.

 

[gankum]

Thanks for the details. Don't think I am debating the need for power amp for my front stage. I agree with PENG on adding XPA-*.

Only thing I am still not 100% sure is if I can get away with lower powered XPA-5 considering I can amplify the center too for movies apart from FR/FL. Also seems 826v is rated for 150w RMS and 220w max power handling,so not sure how it will handle XPA-2. Will I need the power of XPA-2, for my stereo or can I manage with XPA-5 (use 3 channels).

Thanks