Floorstanders vs. Bookshelves – a different approach

killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
I spent some time searching for this topic before posting here, but there’s very little if any sound advice.

I get the feeling that on one hand people are sensitive about everything – a slightest difference in i.e. speaker placement is sometime crucial and so on. On the other hand all the wits go out the window when the topic is floorstanding speakers in a small or medium room.

The topic is exclusively covered from two standpoints – you don’t need a lot of noise/decibels/loudness. And you don’t need that much bass, which comes combined with the advice; get a sub.

So; cabinet construction, crossovers, matching different drivers in a box, the engineering that goes into a certain driver (bass driver in this case), materials… it all seems to be unimportant. “Just buy a sub” and that’s it.

Now, I’m interested to hear a bit about the quality of the speaker as a whole. the quality of the performance of a certain box. So loudness is not important to me, nor is the hip-hop bass. I’m not looking into floorstanders for this purpose. I’m looking into floorstanders because I think serious producers will do a better job of “all-around” acoustics of a speaker than me just buying any sub with a good review and just popping it in the middle.

Furthermore, it can’t be the same thing to have a “single-source” bass unit (in other words a mono bass unit, so to speak) as to have each speaker box producing a portion of the bass image. And so on. You see what I’m getting at; even the slightest change in cone material and you can read volumes about it. But bookshelves/florstanders?? Meh, you don’t need floorstanders. Just buy bookshelves and pop a sub in the middle and of you go.

I am interested to read what you have to say. Are there any smaller size floorstanders that you would prefer over bookshelves in small/middle size rooms for the sheer quality of the sound? Even for quite quiet listening. What else, beside the bass & decibels, do you gain or loose by choosing one over other?

killdozzer
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
What else, beside the bass & decibels, do you gain or loose by choosing one over other?
Nothing. The difference is in the quality of the speaker, not whether it's a tower or bookshelf. One may be more convenient to place, but as far as sound, the only advantage of towers is they can have more room for bigger/more drivers. But unless you get very expensive towers, you still need a sub.

It's easy to find bookshelf speakers with better sound and frequency response than a lot of towers. I think the myth is that you don't need a sub with towers. A simple look at the freq response will show this is usually not true. Some people simply like the look of towers better. But outside of aesthetics, one does not hold any advantage over the other until you get into serious dollars.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
I think the myth is that you don't need a sub with towers. A simple look at the freq response will show this is usually not true. Some people simply like the look of towers better. But outside of aesthetics, one does not hold any advantage over the other until you get into serious dollars.
Correct in 99.99% cases, however there are SOME a top end speakers which truly don't need sub, but price of such (TRUE FULL RANGE) speakers is about 10x times than price bookshelf + sub.

This one is one of the cheapest example of tower which I use without sub: http://philharmonicaudio.com/phil3.html
But if you notice - the bottom section is roughly equivalent to Folded horn sub (http://philharmonicaudio.com/ML-TL.html)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I've owned over 14 pairs of speakers including Revel Salon2, B&W 802 Diamond, KEF 201/2, Linwitz Orion, Philharmonic 3, TAD 2201, RBH SX-T2/R.

In my experience, objectively monitors (like KEF 201/2) produce more accurate measurement than big towers (like KEF 207/2, Revel Salon2).

But subjectively, it could go either way.

So do you believe the objective measurement or your subjective feelings?

Some people say that they want speakers to measure accurately, but at the end of the day their subjective opinions matter more.

Some people say that the more accurately measured speaker will unequivocally sound better period.

Finally, IMO, it is not about monitors vs towers. It is about the speaker design/technology.

IMO bipolar designs like Linwitz produce a grander larger soundstage.

Line array and its variations (average dispersion array) produce more details and dynamics.

Everyone has his preference and you will just have to audition all the types of speakers for yourself like I have and many members here have.
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
Correct in 99.99% cases, however there are SOME a top end speakers which truly don't need sub, but price of such (TRUE FULL RANGE) speakers is about 10x times than price bookshelf + sub.

This one is one of the cheapest example of tower which I use without sub: http://philharmonicaudio.com/phil3.html
But if you notice - the bottom section is roughly equivalent to Folded horn sub (http://philharmonicaudio.com/ML-TL.html)
Agree. I also use the Phil3s w/o a sub for music. But I also think most people would consider $3700/pair "very expensive". And like you said, I suspect they are at the very low end of the cost for a pair of speakers that don't need a sub.
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
Speakers that don't benefit from the support of a subwoofer are rare. The subwoofer, in my view is more important than which speakers you choose. Obviously the bass performance of the speaker pair won't matter if you have a sub. However they will sound different with or without the subwoofer.

If you test a tower vs. a bookshelf from the same maker with the same drivers, they will both produce the same bass because the subwoofer is handling it. However they will sound different from one another. So we are back to the old saw that you should choose the speakers that sound best to you and add a subwoofer no matter which speakers you choose.
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
Thank you all.

I'm not looking for someone to simply say; you’re right, don’t buy monitors and a sub. It seems you all agree on this and this is a good reference for me.

Of course I’ll listen to a couple of setups before I choose.

However, I will say this: it sounds very strange to me. Because what all of you are saying is: don’t use the unit bass, buy an external.

No one is saying you don’t need bass in small rooms - period. You’re all saying; you will need bass in a small room, but don’t buy floorstanders with their own, buy an extra bass unit. All the while producers charge hefty on the difference between towers and bookshelves.

But check this out:

Monitor Audio Bronze 2 – Walnut (280 pounds per pair)

Monitor Audio Bronze W10 Hi Fi Subwoofer – Walnut (500 pounds)


vs.


Monitor Audio Bronze 6 Floorstanding Speakers (pair) – Walnut (699 pounds per pair)


So it seems you even pay more to have good sound in a small room. As the first reply (herbu) said; the myth is that you don't need a sub. So even if you're buying the same producer, same brand, same line of products etc, you will give more money in the end.

What baffled me all this time is the feeling that it is not about the volume of the room; towers can never do what monitors + sub can do. Is this the case?

I was going in a whole different direction (and by the way no one replied to these questions), I thought that there’s some extra care taken when producing an all range speaker. I thought that all parts needed to match perfectly. Also, how come all of a sudden it doesn’t matter if you’re getting all of your bass frequencies from a single speaker?

What good are towers any way? Why are they being produced if the 2.1 sound is unbeatable by towers? Can it all be ascribed to subjective preference?

killdozzer
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Thank you all.

I'm not looking for someone to simply say; you’re right, don’t buy monitors and a sub. It seems you all agree on this and this is a good reference for me.

Of course I’ll listen to a couple of setups before I choose.

However, I will say this: it sounds very strange to me. Because what all of you are saying is: don’t use the unit bass, buy an external.

No one is saying you don’t need bass in small rooms - period. You’re all saying; you will need bass in a small room, but don’t buy floorstanders with their own, buy an extra bass unit. All the while producers charge hefty on the difference between towers and bookshelves.

But check this out:

Monitor Audio Bronze 2 – Walnut (280 pounds per pair)

Monitor Audio Bronze W10 Hi Fi Subwoofer – Walnut (500 pounds)


vs.


Monitor Audio Bronze 6 Floorstanding Speakers (pair) – Walnut (699 pounds per pair)


So it seems you even pay more to have good sound in a small room. As the first reply (herbu) said; the myth is that you don't need a sub. So even if you're buying the same producer, same brand, same line of products etc, you will give more money in the end.

What baffled me all this time is the feeling that it is not about the volume of the room; towers can never do what monitors + sub can do. Is this the case?

I was going in a whole different direction (and by the way no one replied to these questions), I thought that there’s some extra care taken when producing an all range speaker. I thought that all parts needed to match perfectly. Also, how come all of a sudden it doesn’t matter if you’re getting all of your bass frequencies from a single speaker?

What good are towers any way? Why are they being produced if the 2.1 sound is unbeatable by towers? Can it all be ascribed to subjective preference?

killdozzer

I think you're overly generalizing on this. Tower has benefit of better dynamics (aka Louder) than most bookshelves.
So it's not exactly that 2.1 is always better or equal than 2.0 - It's never black and white.
For movies you'd need a sub almost always (see my post above regarding rare and expensive exception) but for music only system more cheaper Tower can play sufficient amount of bass. Even some bookshelves have enough bass.... Depends on music type

What do mean of In your MA speaker comparison ? here's the measurements (spoiler - another Pair of towers which can't play Movies soundtrack with sufficient bass , without help of sub)
http://www.stereophile.com/content/monitor-audio-silver-8-loudspeaker-measurements#bHttLAKDGtGbrhEk.97
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
What good are towers any way? Why are they being produced if the 2.1 sound is unbeatable by towers? Can it all be ascribed to subjective preference?

killdozzer
Mostly yes. In a home theater the advantage of the towers is that they may sound better to you. Also, you don't have to buy stands for them. Some strange people like me do not use digital bass management. Instead we use the subwoofer to support the full range tower speakers. I do this with all of my systems including the 2 channel ones. I'm not suggesting you do this but it is yet another approach to reproducing bass frequencies.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
killdozer – you've asked a lot of good questions. Some answers are easy and others will take more time.

The easy answers first. If two speakers have the same woofers & tweeters but one is in a taller floor standing cabinet and the other is in a smaller bookshelf cabinet. Two things will be different.
  • First, (this is the most important difference) the smaller cabinet will be more rigid, and as a result, it will be quieter. All speaker cabinets have some inherent resonant vibrations, many of which can be heard. That is why such great efforts are made creating dead sounding cabinets. Truly dead, vibration free cabinets are expensive. When construction methods are similar, as we can expect in your Monitor Audio Bronze examples, the smaller Bronze 2 should be quieter than the larger Bronze 6.

  • Second, the larger floor stander can also produce deeper bass than the bookshelf. The Monitor Audio Bronze 6 floor stander you mentioned has 3 6½" drivers and is said to go as low as 34 Hz at a sensitivity of 90 dB. The MA Bronze 2 has one (similar?) 6½" woofer and is said to go as low as 42 Hz at a sensitivity of 90 dB. The difference is 8 Hz. That may seem small, but every doubling of frequency is a musical octave, so going from 25 to 50 Hz, 8 Hz is about one third of an octave.
One problem with your Monitor Audio example is that the Bronze 2 has one woofer and the Bronze 6 has three. They aren't equal. I also wonder about those 90 dB sensitivity ratings. I might believe 90 dB for the Bronze 6, but not for the Bronze 2.

Sub woofers are meant to supplement, not replace, the bass coming from floor standing or bookshelf speakers. Most music doesn't occur below about 30-35 Hz. Electric bass guitars mainly produce sound in the range of 50 Hz and higher. This is easily in the range of most speakers large or small. To produce sound over the full range of audio (down to 20-25 Hz) and at a decent volume level, you're going to pay a lot more. You need larger drivers and more powerful amplifiers. It makes sense to relieve speakers and receivers of this burden by using a sub woofer for bass below roughly 80 Hz.

If you aren't familiar with the sound frequencies that correspond to different musical ranges, look this over:
http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
For solo piano, you need a heck of a monitor, one that's very powerful down to at least 40Hz, so that you don't have a very audible and annoying discontinuity when you cross over to the sub. Even with very capable towers like mine I found that to get the sub seamlessly integrated on solo piano I had to run the towers full range, and use parametric equalization to allow the sub to augment the towers, not replace them in the bottom three octaves. There are some monitors that are capable of good bass response, but they're expensive. For my tastes, I doubt I'd seriously consider monitors.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
  • Second, the larger floor stander can also produce deeper bass than the bookshelf. The Monitor Audio Bronze 6 floor stander you mentioned has 3 6½" drivers and is said to go as low as 34 Hz at a sensitivity of 90 dB.
MA B6 in link I posted above was measured to play 40hz at -6dB, looks like closer to 48hz at -3db (est)
So Yes- more than typical bookshelf, but still needs a sub to play down to 20hz
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
MA B6 in link I posted above was measured to play 40hz at -6dB, looks like closer to 48hz at -3db (est)
So Yes- more than typical bookshelf, but still needs a sub to play down to 20hz
Those are more believable values than those claimed by MA on their web page.

Do you have similar measurements for the B2? If not, we can safely assume it is higher than 40 Hz at -6 dB or quieter than that.

Later, when I have more time, I'll look for an example of a good quality 2-way speaker available in both bookshelf and floor standing cabinets, where everything else is known to be equal, and where we have comparably believable measurements.
 
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killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
These are some helpful answers. Great stuff. Thank you all.

@Swerd: yes, the case of more bass units is always there. Even if it's only one in towers against one in a sub. That's one of the questions most of you skipped; in a 2.1 system sub is not stereo - so to speak.

So another good comparison might be between towers with a single bass unit (amounts to 2) against one in a sub.

@BoredSysAdmin: concerning your "Louder" remark, if it's so, if that's the only advantage, I can easily imagine a solution even in much larger and more expensive set ups to beat this advantage.

For your question about my comparison; mostly people approach the topic of towers vs. bookshelves from the "volume of the room" stand point, as I mentioned in my opening, and they advise you to go for "cheaper" solution of bookshelves for smaller rooms. But if bookshelves without a sub is next to a myth, it would seem you even pay more for a smaller room.

Nevertheless, thank you all. You have answered most of my questions. Basically, you could name just a few cases where one doesn't need sub or could do without. Although from your answers I get the feeling that even more scarce are the cases where you wouldn't profit from one. So even if you don't NEED a sub, you might easily be better of with one.

I did see the advantages of 2.1 system a long time ago, but I always had a feeling that this is the case with cheaper equipment and that there's a point when this stops being helpful and starts spoiling the harmony. Like, you could help some struggling mid-low price speakers with a sub but if it's the case of some... Magico, Sonus Faber towers - just don't touch anything...:)

It seems most of you would even accompany towers with a sub.

killdozzer
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
What is absent from this discussion is that the location where bass playback sounds best in room is not always where upper frequencies sound best; in fact, it rarely is. A sub and some freedom of placement may be able to get you a better bass response than the location your tower speakers have to go. Two subs would be even better for this. Get subs for sound quality if not for sound quantity.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
What is absent from this discussion is that the location where bass playback sounds best in room is not always where upper frequencies sound best; in fact, it rarely is. A sub and some freedom of placement may be able to get you a better bass response than the location your tower speakers have to go. Two subs would be even better for this. Get subs for sound quality if not for sound quantity.
Actually, I think it's more the quality of imaging than where the highs sound the best. Your point above is why I originally got a sub.

As for two subs, my advice is always to get one sub first and see how it sounds and measures, especially if you're running the mains full range like I am. Why buy two if one works fine?
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
For your question about my comparison; mostly people approach the topic of towers vs. bookshelves from the "volume of the room" stand point, as I mentioned in my opening, and they advise you to go for "cheaper" solution of bookshelves for smaller rooms. But if bookshelves without a sub is next to a myth, it would seem you even pay more for a smaller room.
Please re-read my posts again and more carefully. Don't generalize in regards what other people say.
Yes, for smaller rooms to fill you could use smaller speakers, BUT if playing movies is your goal then For almost EVERY single setup SUB is MUST, regardless of room or speakers size.

So it's not about room size, it's about your desired content - Movies need sub. No matter what.
In larger rooms you could gain from using towers, but on your point of "paying more" - as I said only type of Tower where you can REALLY don't miss sub - cost 5-10 times of price of Bookshelves + Sub.

Your example is not accurate as you should not use these MA Br towers without sub for movies.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Those are more believable values than those claimed by MA on their web page.

Do you have similar measurements for the B2? If not, we can safely assume it is higher than 40 Hz at -6 dB or quieter than that.

Later, when I have more time, I'll look for an example of a good quality 2-way speaker available in both bookshelf and floor standing cabinets, where everything else is known to be equal, and where we have comparably believable measurements.
Wrong link, for MA B6 found correct one here - these are from NRC
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1487:nrc-measurements-monitor-audio-bronze-6-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153

It's much worse than that - I'd estimate F3 to be about 70hz.
So I won't use this tower even for music without sub.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
As usual with speakers it is more complex than what has so far been stated here.

I think when considering this question, the application and context are a good starting point.

This question involves musical preference and desired spl.

As I have so often stated with electronic instruments, there is no reasonable point of reference, and so many ills will pass.

However if your choice is natural instruments and you are an experienced listener and really know how it should sound then things are more complex. Even then are your preference solo instruments and small ensembles or the whole gamut is crucial to design. If you want to reproduce accurately from solo guitar, to huge orchestras, with a massive pipe organ and massed choirs at concert hall levels, then you have your work cut out. The latter can pack an awesome punch, and sustained at that.

The next issue is what I return to again and again, the power demands are way above sub level. Little happens below 40 Hz most of the time. The real power is 80 Hz to 2.5 KHz and even to 5KHz and beyond. This is the first problem area and most important to get right. This is where the larger speaker has an advantage. To properly reproduce this range at power takes two drivers in each speaker to really handle this without unacceptable levels of thermal dynamic compression and distortion. It requires substantial motor systems in the drivers.

So a bookshelf with one bass mid per cabinet will not suffice. If power demands are moderate they can acquit themselves well. This gets back to application.

The next issue is that fortunately the ear is forgiving in the last two octaves to a point.
The point comes when you actually get used to a properly balanced non resonant detailed bass.
After that you are ruined for anything else pretty much. My point is this insensitivity goes away with training.

So yes, a crossover from sub to mains is a crossover, and for superior results it has to be an integrated crossover and part of the integral design. Any speaker, any sub does not cut it at this level of accuracy.

I believe firmly that all speakers including any subs have to be part of an overall arching integral design.

Here there is also a difference of opinion between the two sides of the Atlantic. In the UK the view is that speakers should where possible be run full range and allowed to roll off naturally and the subs just gently supplement the last octave as a mirror image of the roll off of at least the mains. This plays fast and loose with phase the least.

On the other hand in the US cutting out the mains is recommended more often than not. I certainly lean to the UK view.

The problem is that the UK approach is more costly as cheaper drivers will not perform optimally without this crossover.

I'm wrestling with this right now. For some time I have been working on a cost effective speaker system, and hope to be ready for some construction in the coming weeks.

For a cost effective system it will demand cutting out the lower 2.5 octaves. This then demands the crossover to the sub be treated with as much care and formality as the rest. It is an integrated design and not a pick and choose one.

What I have found listening to other systems is that the sub is in general far too loud and used crudely to mask a whole host of ills. The end result is far from accurate and realistic reproduction, however much it pleases the owners or demonstrators.

In reproducing systems an accurate, detailed, integrated non resonant bass is so rare you can just about forget it! However when you hear it you know it.

The next question is how much bass do you need? Most music really only requires a response to the 40 Hz range. Movies are a different matter. But how many of us have a steady diet of movie sound effects?

In superior systems a sub should have very little to do and require minimal power. In fact I regard a sub as the most dispensable item in good speaker systems.

As you know in my main system I'm without sub. So how do I do this? All the front short lines are allowed to roll of naturally. Both three front pipes have almost identical F3. The large pipes supplement and the LFE channel mixed in and equalized to make an excellent combined electrical and acoustic crossover.

The surrounds are sealed and roll off 12 db per octave at very close to the fronts. The 12 db point is 45 Hz, with a 12 db point around 25 Hz.

The rear backs 3 db point is 35 Hz and 12 db point 20 Hz. This actually gives me sub performance in the rear.

I do use this system extensively in Dolby PL IIx Music. This is where 7.1 has a huge advantage over 5.1. This highly integrated system does realistically put back the ambiance and space in most two channel recordings. I was playing one of my recordings a coupe of days ago. As many of you know I do not play fast and loose with phase in my speaker designs or microphone layouts. In this two channel recording almost all the applause came out of the surrounds and rears as it should have, very little from the fronts.

In my downstairs system, the speakers have a gentle roll off at 53 Hz and a 24 db per octave roll off below 35 Hz. I use low Q coupled cavity subs to supplement and fill in the roll off. These subs have minimal output and require very little power, yet the bass is more than adequate, bearing in mind this is not a full concert hall spl system. Again application, application and application is key.

To sum up a bookshelf system with integrated subs can work well, but not to reference and concert hall levels, that requires more substantial design.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
MA B6 in link I posted above was measured to play 40hz at -6dB, looks like closer to 48hz at -3db (est)
So Yes- more than typical bookshelf, but still needs a sub to play down to 20hz
Which link to the B6, the one in your post#8 is for the Silver 8. I just installed one of those, along with two subs, one on each side. They probably can survive on their own in a small room though.
 
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