Advice on my new setup

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optician6198

Audiophyte
Hi guys, love your videos on youtube so thought you may be able oe to help me out.

I have the following

Denon AVR x2000 (95w 2ch 0.08% Dist)
B&W 685s2 Fronts 87db @ 1m
B&W HTM62 Center 85db @1m
B&W 685 S1 Rear 88db @1m
B&W ASW608 sub 8" woofer 200w amp

I've set everything up and done the audyssey mic calibration many times using all 8 locations, but I've always had problems with it.

When I turn it up loud (-10db) i often get little bits of distortion either when someone talks or during loud sound effects. I've looked and read everything I can, I got B&W's due to their amazing press and that my dad once had a cinema system that sounded amazing with B&W speakers. I realise now that their sensitivity rating is only 87/88 but surely I shouldn't have to spend even more on another receiver and also hook up external amplification to get some £499 speakers to sing?

The other possible problem could be that the impedance swing of the speaker starts at 3.7 ohms and my current avr only list from 6 (the year after they are rated from 4 for some reason)

finally the amp sounds much better and louder in 2ch stereo mode with the on board Spotify app

Any help would be greatly appreciated :)

Keep up the good work
 
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Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Sounds like the receiver is running out of steam if I'm completely honest. Unfortunately that receiver does not have preouts so adding an amplifier won't do the trick. You'll probably be best suited to upgrade to a more powerful AVR. B&W speakers are known to throw some pretty crazy loads on amplifiers, they need some grunt behind them to sound their best.

I would assume the power supply is the limitation in this case since you say it sounds clearer/better when running in 2 channel. The X2000 weighing in at just barely over 20 pounds for a receiver that runs a class A/B amplifier it doesn't surprise me.

That does not imply that simply buying a heavier receiver will net you more power, but something that light is certainly on the low end of the scale.
 
O

optician6198

Audiophyte
I thought that may be the case, i was looking at specs of the higher tier models and they go from 500w (x2000) to 600w (x3000) and 670w (x4100) although the weight difference between them all is negligible.

I didn't want to add an external amplifier as the costs are getting crazy and i dont have the room. This was originally replacing a Yamaha all in one system haha!
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Additionally, that sub seems a little light for sound effects.
 
O

optician6198

Audiophyte
I realise the sub should be bigger but I'm trying to get the speakers sounding right before I start spending on anything else.

Would I see a big difference jumping from my x2000 to something up the range with these larger power draws?
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
I realise the sub should be bigger but I'm trying to get the speakers sounding right before I start spending on anything else.

Would I see a big difference jumping from my x2000 to something up the range with these larger power draws?
Can you give us a budget? There's a lot of good receivers to be had in the $600-1000 range.

I'd suggest heading over to accessories4less and start comparing models there.

What features do you want or think you'll use in the future (atmos? 4K? etc...)?

If I had speakers like that I would want something like this.

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/yamrxa2040bl/yamaha-rx-a2040-9.2-atmos-network-aventage-receiver-wi-fi/airplay-sale-reduced-150/1.html#!specifications
 
O

optician6198

Audiophyte
My budget was about £600 ($1000USD) which would just about get me a Denon AVR X4100 over here (I know that the Denon will fit in my unit as it is the same height as my current one.

What would you suggest, should I be going by the power supply draw number or is there ananother way in determining the quality of the power supply?

Jonny
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
My budget was about £600 ($1000USD) which would just about get me a Denon AVR X4100 over here (I know that the Denon will fit in my unit as it is the same height as my current one.

What would you suggest, should I be going by the power supply draw number or is there ananother way in determining the quality of the power supply?

Jonny
I can't speak to Denon. I've not been overly fond of their products for a few years now. That doesn't mean they are bad, I just don't care much for them.

Ironically I prefer Marantz over Denon (even though they're owned by the same parent company) and Yamaha.
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
finally the amp sounds much better and louder in 2ch stereo mode with the on board Spotify app
While it is possible the Denon ran out of steam as Seth suggested, vol at -10 would still put it within its power limit. If it sounds much better in 2 channel, but also with Spotify app, then I suggest you try to play some CDs or lossless digital files that are known to have good sound quality. The main reason for the distortion could well be due to poor sound quality of your source media, that is, garbage in garbage out.

Poor quality recordings do tend to sound more acceptable until you turn the volume up so don't assume the problem is the Denon yet, though it could be, or at least part of it.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
While it is possible the Denon ran out of steam as Seth suggested, vol at -10 would still put it within its power limit.
That depends entirely on the speakers. Given the same level adjustment does not necessarily mean that the receiver would provide anywhere close to the same amount of power on two completely different sets of speakers. B&Ws are pretty power hungry and they really need a solid amp behind them in order to sound their best.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
That depends entirely on the speakers. Given the same level adjustment does not necessarily mean that the receiver would provide anywhere close to the same amount of power on two completely different sets of speakers. B&Ws are pretty power hungry and they really need a solid amp behind them in order to sound their best.
You are right, but it also depends on how loud he likes, room dimensions and sitting distance. I sort of took some of those into account based on the stated minimum impedance of those B&W speakers and other facts he provided thus far, along with some assumptions. I then did some quick math (See note), and found that the AVR may not be putting out any where near its limit. He's talking about distortion when "someone talks", not cymbals or bass drums, cannon etc. So even if the vocal part (someone talks) has 12 dB peak, his AVR still won't be at its limit unless he listen at very loud average SPL, like over 85 dB, in a large room, or both.

I would bet its his source media, especially since he said it sounded much better with Spotify App, I mean even Spotify App music wouldn't be of very good quality. It will be good if the OP will give us more feedback on the kind of program material format/specs when he was getting the distortion.

Again, as I said it could well be that his AVR ran of steam, I just don't think we should jump to conclusion at this point. Let's get more info first, sound reasonable?

Note: If he did Audyssey right, at vol 0 he will get up to 85 dB from his main sitting position when playing movie DD or DTS sound tracks. Assuming he sits 4 meter from the speakers, with room gain he probably get 97 dB at 1m (assume only 3 dB of room gain and only 3 dB of gain due to multiple speakers, say just 2). So at vol -10, he would get about 87 dB at 1m. Based on the nominal impedance of the the 685 S2 and sensitivity, the AVR will be outputting 1W per channel. You need 20 dB peak above the average spl he listens to to get to the Denon's rated output.

Those speakers do have impedance dips but again, he's getting distortion when someone talks not when the bass drum hits hard of cymbals crashes hard.

These are of just rough calculations, but it should get us in the ball park. Bottom line, we need to know more about his room dimensions, sitting distance, types/formats of the source media/program material etc. Yes, getting more power is always a good and safe bet, but it is not always an absolute need in every case.
 
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optician6198

Audiophyte
I sit about 4 metres from the centre speaker. The room is about 5m deep and 4m wide but with a wide opening leading to the kitchen.

My source material was the fifth element on DVD through a ps4 I would imagine Dolby digital soundtrack 5.1. I get the same problems with other material, star wars episode 1 pod race scene sounds harsh and I feel it's too quiet as I turn it up to about -3db.

To be honest if I go upstairs and use a Yamaha all in one it sounds fantastic...
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
I sit about 4 metres from the centre speaker. The room is about 5m deep and 4m wide but with a wide opening leading to the kitchen.

My source material was the fifth element on DVD through a ps4 I would imagine Dolby digital soundtrack 5.1. I get the same problems with other material, star wars episode 1 pod race scene sounds harsh and I feel it's too quiet as I turn it up to about -3db.

To be honest if I go upstairs and use a Yamaha all in one it sounds fantastic...
I suppose it is possible the Denon is somehow faulty, either way I would upgrade.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I suppose it is possible the Denon is somehow faulty, either way I would upgrade.
I tend to agree with what you are saying now, it shouldn't feel quiet at -3 unless the OP define "quiet" different than we do.

Last night I cranked mine to 0 just to confirm the SPL and at -10, there was no way I could tolerate the average 85 to 88 dB with peaks to mid 90's playing Resident Evil and a few dB less with the Hobbits. That's from my sitting position. At 1 meter I got 6 to 7 dB more. I did try vol a 0 briefly and I saw 114 once or twice but only with the Hobbits not the RE. RE did have much peaks, not even during the gun fires, it really depends mainly on how they did the mix, though according to THX, you can expect up to 20 dB of dynamic peaks. My system is much more powerful than the OPs but that is irrelevant in terms of SPL as shown in my quick calculations in my previous post.

So long story short, in the OP's 5X4m room sitting 4m from the centre speakers he should feel it quiet at all.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I sit about 4 metres from the centre speaker. The room is about 5m deep and 4m wide but with a wide opening leading to the kitchen.

My source material was the fifth element on DVD through a ps4 I would imagine Dolby digital soundtrack 5.1. I get the same problems with other material, star wars episode 1 pod race scene sounds harsh and I feel it's too quiet as I turn it up to about -3db.

To be honest if I go upstairs and use a Yamaha all in one it sounds fantastic...
I have that DVD, it should not sound harsh at -10, -3 maybe. I agree with Seth, time to upgrade. You can grab the previous flagship 4520 or the newer X4100W for under $800 right now.
 
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O

optician6198

Audiophyte
It's mainly harshness at the top end some sound effects sounding distorted to my ears, jets going past or explosions etc...

Thanks for all your advice. Will a 4100w be a big upgrade from my current receiver? I've been researching receiver power supplies to understand what to look for and there isnt a post that gives a straight answer.

The 4100w is rated at 670w compared to my current amps 500w, is this good, will it create a more stable signal under load?

Thanks again
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
It's mainly harshness at the top end some sound effects sounding distorted to my ears, jets going past or explosions etc...

Thanks for all your advice. Will a 4100w be a big upgrade from my current receiver? I've been researching receiver power supplies to understand what to look for and there isnt a post that gives a straight answer.

The 4100w is rated at 670w compared to my current amps 500w, is this good, will it create a more stable signal under load?

Thanks again
Problem is, they don't tell you under what condition the unit will consume 670W. There seems to be no standards that govern what manufacturers have to disclose. Yamaha usually (not always either) give you two numbers, a lower one similar to Denon's and then a much higher number they refer to as "Maximum power consumption". I believe Harman Kardon provides only the "Maximum" power consumption when all channels are driven simultaneously to their rated output at a certain undisclosed distortion level. So the bottom line is that you really can't tell how powerful the AVR is by the power consumption figure, but if you wish, you can definitely make your own assumptions and use them as guidelines, use them wisely though..

Still, comparing the 4100's 670W to the X2000's 500W is fair because they are both Denon. So you can safely assume the X4100 is more powerful than the X2000 though not significant. I am still very confident to say your problem is not because of the relatively low rated power output of your receiver, but rather, your particular unit may have deteriorated and that resulted in higher distortions. I base my opinion on the information your provided and I presented my quick and dirty calculations in post#11. That's base on volume at -10, if you push it up to -3 then you will obviously be much closer to the limit of the X2000 even if it is in perfect condition.

The X4100W has multichannel pre-outs so you will have the option to add an external amp if proved necessary.

If you are interested in comparing the bench test power outputs versus distortions of a number of AVRs, take a look of my thread on this topic.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/avr-distortions-from-entry-level-to-top-level-models.97159/
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Have you tried other speakers?

It could be speakers, AVR, source.

I don't think B&W speakers are anymore "power hungry" than other speakers. I used to own the 802 Diamond.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I'm pretty sure you never ran those on a 20 pound receiver. :D
27 lbs he did, as far as I know. By the way, on this topic I think you and fmw may want to lean towards the middle a little.:D
 

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