How much power do I need?

[KenM10759]

Oh, but how was this test performed? And yes, it matters to the question what was actually heard/perceived vs what was imagined to be heard/perceived.

Good Lord, you guys are relentless.

Answer: I listened to them and liked what I heard on one better than the other.

Not scientific/objective enough for this crowd, fortunately I'm the only one who has to (wants to) pay for the stuff and listen to it in my home.

 

[herbu]

Good Lord, you guys are relentless.
Answer: I listened to them and liked what I heard on one better than the other.

Relentless? Yes, but understand about what.
1) Amplification does not color the signal.
2) Many factors DO color the signal.

Everyone here agrees you should get what you like. Everyone. If you want the discussion to end with that, OK. We all wish you the best. But if you strive to understand WHY you like what you like, you've come to the right place. Prepare yourself. There will be a lot of information, a lot of factors, a lot of interaction between those factors, and even some opinion about which factor is more critical than another. It is what audiophiles and Audioholics do. Don't take it personally.

 

[PENG]

Good Lord, you guys are relentless.

Answer: I listened to them and liked what I heard on one better than the other.

Not scientific/objective enough for this crowd, fortunately I'm the only one who has to (wants to) pay for the stuff and listen to it in my home.

I hope you don't get frustrated just because we are not agreeing on certain things. Of course it is your money and your equipment to enjoy at home and I am happy to know you found what you consider as a good match to your R500 at affordable price. You are sharing your experience here and that is good, whatever the underlining reasons of your own findings are. Some of us naturally would try to come up with reasons for your findings, whether you care to know or not. We do so for different reasons, one being, so the OP knows he may not get the same results even if he follows yours or anyone's for that matter exact same path.

My side of the story is that my R900 and LS50 are equally enjoyable whether I drive them with my Denon AVR3805 or a pair of CA and Halo separates at SPL that I can tolerate. So obviously different people don't necessarily share the same or even similar experience. In my case, I finally accept the fact (to me) that I don't need any more upgrade to my electronics and I will focus on speakers only if I ever want to upgrade again.

Reality is, we all could end up offering our subjective views that the OP may or may not share in the end and I don't think people who come here to ask questions expect consensus on everything, except for facts and figures that are known to come from credible sources.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Good Lord, you guys are relentless.

Answer: I listened to them and liked what I heard on one better than the other.

Not scientific/objective enough for this crowd, fortunately I'm the only one who has to (wants to) pay for the stuff and listen to it in my home.

Well, you contributed and it seemed that you contributed the differences to that speaker, having some
capability that contributed. This is more than a preference that is not usually questioned.
Reality bites, as they say. While I directly responded to your post, it is also for others new to the audio world to evaluate some facts and testing is part of it, good testing, and no, don't need a scientific peer paper on it.
Perhaps there was a difference but at this junction, no one knows for sure.

 

[3db]

One must understand that all channel driven is not a terribly meaningful specification because all channels are rarely driven and when they are it is for a short duration.

Its more a test of the sensitivity of the AVR's protection circuitry than it is a power test.

 

[herbu]

you contributed and it seemed that you contributed the differences to that speaker, having some capability that contributed.

Whaaaat?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Whaaaat?

Magical speakers with mysterious capability to make differences audible.

 

[KenM10759]

My non-scientific test of the receiver I chose was that in my room with my speakers and all the room characteristics that influence sound overall, the bigger influence on my purchase of a new receiver was the price and availability for a given sound quality.

The older Denon sounded OK. The Anthem MRX510 was awesome and in direct mode really sounded "clearer" to me. The NAD T758 sounded very nearly the same and didn't go as loud, but in the end came to me at half the price of the Anthem so I bought it. I'm sure the equivalent in a newer Denon, Marantz, Yamaha or other similar make would have sounded as good, but I could not take one home from any shop and try it and pricing would have put them in between the NAD and Anthem. I decided to jump on the refurbished NAD because it suited my needs in many ways for now and affords an upgrade path with it's good pre-outs and MDC module. Perhaps my older Denon was just fine and my desire to gift it to my son made my mind believe I should upgrade. It sounds like a new machine in his home.

I will never suggest my choice is right for anyone else but me. I will however recommend a buyer should keep an open mind and audition anything falling with their budget and needs for features. In my case I didn't want to be buying to test and ship things back & forth, rather just carry them home from the shop to try them and find what works in my situation. Do whatever makes sense for YOU.

 

[PENG]

I think in some cases, the key is in the word "old". "Old" does not always result in audible sound quality change but it does introduce a variable that could have significant impact. My old Denon AVR-3805 still sounds amazing when compared to my new separates, but it does not mean any other old 3805 would sound as good. So I agree with Ken, a new equivalent D&M or Yamaha could possible (I would say highly likely) sound as good as the Anthem and NAD when compared in pure direct and all bias taken out of the equation.

 

[mtrycrafts]

.. Perhaps my older Denon was just fine and my desire to gift it to my son made my mind believe I should upgrade. It sounds like a new machine in his home.
...

It was that transit trip to your son's house that rejuvenated it.
Enjoy.

 

[dp412]

dp412,
From all these great responses, I hope you gleaned the following:
1) You won't be able to HEAR the difference in power of any AVR in the $400 range.
2) At normal levels, any $400 AVR won't even come close to using its max power.
3) If you like LOUD, get an AVR with preouts, so you can add an amp later, (if you want).
4) Focus on features, not power. (You can add power, not features.)
5) Denon/Marantz and Yamaha are generally considered good choices here.

Now that you're gonna focus on FEATURES, feel free to ask more questions if you don't understand. YPAO, Audyssey, preouts, sub mgmt, dual sub mgmt... you got all that, right?

Thank you for the help! I just bought a refurbished Yamaha RX-A820 from Accessories4less. It has 100W * 2 channels and it has preouts for each channel if I want to add a separate amp later. It has Airplay built in, although it requires a wired network connection (no wifi). I have quite a few Apple products and enjoy the convenience of Airplay so that was a nice bonus for me. I'm excited to try it out!

 

[Robert94]

We all know many people claim they could heard differences between AVRs, amps, preamps, DACs etc.,

So are you saying that in real terms buying a decent DAC isn't worth the money if you already have a decent amp?

If so that's interesting because I've wondered what the point of getting a DAC is..

 

[PENG]

So are you saying that in real terms buying a decent DAC isn't worth the money if you already have a decent amp?

If so that's interesting because I've wondered what the point of getting a DAC is..

No, I wouldn't say that at all. As a matter of facts I have a few DACs.

 

[Robert94]

No, I wouldn't say that at all. As a matter of facts I have a few DACs.

ah okay, misinterpretation then

 

[PENG]

ah okay, misinterpretation then

I rarely made blanket statements, everything depends..

 

[Ty Wayne]

Thank you for the help! I just bought a refurbished Yamaha RX-A820 from Accessories4less. It has 100W * 2 channels and it has preouts for each channel if I want to add a separate amp later. It has Airplay built in, although it requires a wired network connection (no wifi). I have quite a few Apple products and enjoy the convenience of Airplay so that was a nice bonus for me. I'm excited to try it out!

I've been wondering something about "airplay". Im unfamiliar with it. Do you need an internet connection to use airplay??? Like if I had an avr with the airplay function, but I didnt have the avr connected to the internet, could I still use airplay?

That seems to be what you are saying, but I wanted to confirm.

 

[PENG]

I've been wondering something about "airplay". Im unfamiliar with it. Do you need an internet connection to use airplay??? Like if I had an avr with the airplay function, but I didnt have the avr connected to the internet, could I still use airplay?

That seems to be what you are saying, but I wanted to confirm.

You don't need to have internet access as such, but you do need to have the receiver connected to your home network, hard wired or wifi. Chances are that your modem router does have internet access though.

 

[Robert94]

Airplay can be funny sometimes as I have a Yamaha RX-V673 and it can connect to a phone through airplay but the MacBooks don't seem to find it, which is intensely irritating so I just stick to using wires.

 

[Ty Wayne]

You don't need to have internet access as such, but you do need to have the receiver connected to your home network, hard wired or wifi. Chances are that your modem router does have internet access though.

Okay. Well, here is the deal....

I dont have an internet cable in the area of my system, so I have to rely on wifi. I was thinking about going with the Denon 4520CI, but it doesnt have wifi. In this case, airplay would be useless to me, correct?

In this case, I'll go with the X4100 because it does have wifi. Am I understanding correctly? I had really narrowed it down to between these two avr's.

 

[PENG]

Okay. Well, here is the deal....

I dont have an internet cable in the area of my system, so I have to rely on wifi. I was thinking about going with the Denon 4520CI, but it doesnt have wifi. In this case, airplay would be useless to me, correct?

In this case, I'll go with the X4100 because it does have wifi. Am I understanding correctly? I had really narrowed it down to between these two avr's.

Wait a minute, the 4520CI is a beast, almost as powerful as my previous 4308, and has extremely low distortions from 1W to rated output. You may want to just get the 4520CI, add a wifi adapter to it, or run a long CAT5 cable to hardwire it, or get one of those power line adapter, or get a wireless repeater modem. Any of these solutions are cheap to implement, say less than $70 for sure. Remember, the 4520CI was Denon's top model before the X7200W. It shares many features and possibly components with the Marantz AV8801, such as the higher end 32bit DACs. I posted its bench test power vs distortions graphs in the link below and you can see how it compares with other AVRs.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/avr-distortions-from-entry-level-to-top-level-models.97159/

Source info for the 4520:
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-4520ci-av-receiver-test-bench#webMy0sEVYViK526.97

Again, the 4100 is a good choice but if you can get the 4520 for the same price or a little more then don't settle for less just because of the wifi issue that can be solved very easily and cheaply.