Speakers Sound More Quiet on Amp

AbbyDaddy

AbbyDaddy

Audioholic Intern
Hello! Could someone explain to me why powering my L, R, C, SL, and SR off of my Rotel RMB-1075 amp sound quieter than when I had them powered by just the receiver (Yamaha RX-A3050)? I have a 5.2.4 setup. My thought was that when all nine channels were powered, that they were getting less watts per channel, so I switched them to the amp. I don't get why they would sound more quiet to where I have to turn the volume up more.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Hello! Could someone explain to me why powering my L, R, C, SL, and SR off of my Rotel RMB-1075 amp sound quieter than when I had them powered by just the receiver (Yamaha RX-A3050)? I have a 5.2.4 setup. My thought was that when all nine channels were powered, that they were getting less watts per channel, so I switched them to the amp. I don't get why they would sound more quiet to where I have to turn the volume up more.
It is all a matter of gain. The internal receiver amps require less voltage from the pre amps for a given power than your Rotel.

This has nothing to do with how much power the amps can actually produce.

It is all a matter of gain structure, which you need to understand.
 
AbbyDaddy

AbbyDaddy

Audioholic Intern
I guess that I don't follow. Can you please somewhat explain what you mean? Because right now, I think the amp is going to be disconnected if it sound this way.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I guess that I don't follow. Can you please somewhat explain what you mean? Because right now, I think the amp is going to be disconnected if it sound this way.
Your Rotel amp and the Yamaha have similar power, although the Yamaha is a little more powerful. The Yamaha is 150 watts versus 120 watts for the Rotel. However that power difference is insignificant.

Now we have no idea how much voltage it takes from the preamp section of the Yamaha to power the amps to full output. Nor do we know the output voltage of the preouts from your Yamaha. It is not specified.

We do know that one volt will drive the Rotel to full power.

However, if the Yamaha amps can be driven to full power with 0.5 volts say, then you will have to advance the volume on the Yamaha more to drive the Rotel amps.

Where you have to set the volume control is irrelevant. As long is there is enough voltage from the preouts to drive the Rotel to full power at any setting that is all that matters.

The actual position you have to set the volume control is irrelevant, as long as the system will play loud enough for you, if you advance the volume high enough.
 
WaynePflughaupt

WaynePflughaupt

Audioholic Samurai

The actual position you have to set the volume control is irrelevant, as long as the system will play loud enough for you, if you advance the volume high enough.
What TLS said. To put it as simply as possible without getting into the technicalities of gain structure, different amps have different input sensitivities. If you put a bunch of them in a row, most will get a different output level with the same volume control setting from a given pre amp. For all practical purposes it doesn’t matter. All that matters is if you are able to drive the amp to as loud a volume level as you would ever want or need.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
 
AbbyDaddy

AbbyDaddy

Audioholic Intern
Why would the room correction not account for this and adjust? Also, how can you say that the Yamaha is more powerful? No AVR puts out its rated power to all channels simultaneously. If I had all 9 channels driven, there's no way it was getting close to 165, but with the Rotel, it should be getting 120 minimum.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
When is an AVR called upon to deliver its maximum power to all channels simultaneously?

But, in any case, several knowledgeable people have tries to explain this phenomena to you but you still don't buy it.

It seems you want to ditch the amp. Go ahead, You'll feel better.
 
AbbyDaddy

AbbyDaddy

Audioholic Intern
I'm just confused about it is all. I read about external amps being better, so I got one. It's cool. People who don't know much come on forums for help, not to be belittled and berated. Thanks.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
You cannot expect years of knowledge to be explained in a few sentences on a forum. The answers to some questions require a bit of prior knowledge about the subject at hand. IOW, you asked a question and you got the answer, and quite a good one at that. You just don't understand it.

Sometimes, to get a true understanding of what's being said takes a little individual research on ones own in order to fill in the gaps. You might want to google "amplifier gain" for starters.
 
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AbbyDaddy

AbbyDaddy

Audioholic Intern
So, I found this article helpful: http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/amplifier-voltage-gain

Going off of the specs, of both the amp and the AVR, I am taking it to mean that I may have to raise the volume level on the AVR to push the amp to more voltage, but I will have cleaner power going to the speakers throughout the entire volume/power band? I just need to drive the amp harder to draw more power to achieve the result that I want which is cleaner/louder sound before distortion?
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I'm just confused about it is all. I read about external amps being better, so I got one. It's cool. People who don't know much come on forums for help, not to be belittled and berated. Thanks.
Well, I see you've run into the Marks, two of our resident grumpy old men. Especially markw. They mean well, but sometimes they get impatient with anyone who doesn't care to get at least an associates degree in electronics before asking questions.

What they're trying to tell you is that amplifiers don't work the way you think they do. Think of an audio amplifier like a black box that multiplies an input signal by a given, fixed, amount. Yes, fixed. Let's say that for one particular amplifier the multiplier is 26. That means that any signal you feed into the amplifier comes out 26 times bigger. Let's say another amplifier has a multiplier of 32, which means that any signal you input will be 32 times bigger at the output. This multiplier is the gain structure TLS Guy is talking about. And here's a curve ball... the multiplier has absolutely nothing to do with the potential power output of the amplifier. That's a separate design consideration. And the volume control, that's just a way to adjust the signal level up or down that's fed by the pre-amplifier, in a receiver or an integrated amp or a separate pre-amp, into the power amplifier inputs. That's all a volume control is.

So, the bigger the multiplier the more sensitive the amplifier is, and the louder that any given input signal will sound. And it also means the volume control won't have to be turned up so high, because the amp is just more sensitive. So a 30 watt per channel amplifier that's more sensitive can sound louder, within its power output capability, than a 300 watt per channel amplifier that is less sensitive, assuming a similar input signal.

In reality, I've over-simplified things a bit to make it easier to understand. In reality the multiplier is measured in decibels, which uses a logarithmic scale in which every 3 decibels represents a doubling of the signal level, so the typical gain range for home audio power amplifiers is between 26db and 32db, so the real signal multiplication factor is huge. For 26db of gain you're doubling the input signal 8.6 times compounded, and for 32db 10.6 times compounded.

The gain of the Rotel amp is about 28db, which puts it at the low end of the home audio sensitivity range, and that may or may not be compatible with the output capability of the Yamaha. Regardless, having to turn up the volume control to achieve a similar in-room volume level isn't all that surprising.
 
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ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
So, I found this article helpful: http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/amplifier-voltage-gain

Going off of the specs, of both the amp and the AVR, I am taking it to mean that I may have to raise the volume level on the AVR to push the amp to more voltage, but I will have cleaner power going to the speakers throughout the entire volume/power band? I just need to drive the amp harder to draw more power to achieve the result that I want which is cleaner/louder sound before distortion?
Pretty much. You should get yourself a bit more safety cushion of reserve headroom all around by using the Rotel, but don't expect dramatic increases in loudness. If you were indeed stressing the Yamaha, you will probably notice a more effortless presentation at the same levels that previously had you turning it down, but you're not adding enough power for significant spl increases.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Great. You've taken a little initiative to help yourself. I commend you.
So, I found this article helpful: http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/amplifier-voltage-gain

Going off of the specs, of both the amp and the AVR, I am taking it to mean that I may have to raise the volume level on the AVR to push the amp to more voltage, but I will have cleaner power going to the speakers throughout the entire volume/power band? I just need to drive the amp harder to draw more power to achieve the result that I want which is cleaner/louder sound before distortion?
No. What you need to understand is that the amp's output is governed by the input signal, not the volume indicator.

The relative position of the "volume indicator" is meaningless here. Two preamp sections driving the power amp to the same audible loudness level will be "stressing" the amp exactly the same. ..and yet one may show the level as 50 and the other as 90. It doesn't matter. Both are driving the amp to the same level.

As long as the preamp section can cleanly drive the power amp to it's maximum level, you'll be fine.

Look at it this way: Two people are sleeping. One wakes up at the slightest noise while the other could sleep through a tornado.

Now, if the preamp section overdrives the power amp, or the preamp is being overdriven, you'll hear it in the form of nasty sounds.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Why would the room correction not account for this and adjust?
If you ran YPAO and followed the instructions to the letter then the AVR should have set the speaker levels such that at your main sitting position, all 5 channels should be equally loud, or balanced. That would be regardless of whether all the speakers, or just some are connected to the Rotel. It won't necessarily raise the level of all speakers to compensate for the lower gain of the Rotel.

Also, how can you say that the Yamaha is more powerful? No AVR puts out its rated power to all channels simultaneously. If I had all 9 channels driven, there's no way it was getting close to 165, but with the Rotel, it should be getting 120 minimum.
He can say that because of his experience in this field. He also said the difference was insignificant so there is no need to be concerned. I was able to find bench tests for the RX-A2040 that is similar to your RX-A3050 and the Rotel 1075. The test results do support what TLS anticipated, that the Yamaha is a little more powerful, 195.9W vs 161W into 8 ohms and 317.1W vs 264W into 4 ohms.

The 3050 should be about 10% more powerful so yes your AVR is definitely a little more powerful than the Rotel, in two channel driven condition. With all 5 channel driven, the Rotel would be more powerful because of its larger power supply.

If you want to take advantage of the Yamaha's dynamic capability, you could use it to power your L,R and let the Rotel drive the other 3 channels.

Below are links to the S&V review and bench test data.

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-aventage-rx-a2040-av-receiver-review-test-bench#p5bYargq3TOTbdfp.97

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/rotel-rmb-1075-5-channel-power-amplifier-measurments#DLbwfWXbLJSDritF.97
 
AbbyDaddy

AbbyDaddy

Audioholic Intern
Would the fact that the Yamaha outputs one volt and the Rotel needs 3 volts minimum also effect what I am hearing.

Also, I'm very new/green when it comes to this. I had a HTIB system for 10 years. I'm sorry that I'm ignorant in regard to this area of expertise. I'm not an engineer, so some of this is over my head. Why does someone who knows less offend you guys so much? If the roles were reversed, and I had to train someone to be a great salesperson, I wouldn't talk down to you; I'd help you to understand the science behind sales and make you better.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Would the fact that the Yamaha outputs one volt and the Rotel needs 3 volts minimum also effect what I am hearing.
Maybe. The output levels you're quoting are the maximum output levels, which means that the Yamaha will not be able to drive the Rotel to full output. If you have sensitive speakers you may never need full output from the Rotel amp, so you may not notice it. On the other hand, if you have insensitive speakers, the lack of sufficient peak output from the Yamaha may very well be noticeable.

Also, I'm very new/green when it comes to this. I had a HTIB system for 10 years. I'm sorry that I'm ignorant in regard to this area of expertise. I'm not an engineer, so some of this is over my head. Why does someone who knows less offend you guys so much? If the roles were reversed, and I had to train someone to be a great salesperson, I wouldn't talk down to you; I'd help you to understand the science behind sales and make you better.
I agree.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Also, I'm very new/green when it comes to this. I had a HTIB system for 10 years. I'm sorry that I'm ignorant in regard to this area of expertise. I'm not an engineer, so some of this is over my head. Why does someone who knows less offend you guys so much? If the roles were reversed, and I had to train someone to be a great salesperson, I wouldn't talk down to you; I'd help you to understand the science behind sales and make you better.
Now I'm offended. I wasn't before.

Sometimes, a simple question can't be answered with a simple answer. When one question leads to another to explain the answer, and another to explain THAT answer, and another, it's fairly obvious that the answer wasn't understood and was beyond the understanding of the questioner.

At some point it should become clear that a bit more understanding of the answer might require a bit more basic knowledge to comprehend the answer. If the petitioner doesn't make any effort to educate himself, then it becomes an issue. . ..particularly in this internet age where detailed information, at any level of learning, can be obtained by a quick search, not by asking others to explain everything to you.

And, I've done both sales and technical work. Don't even try to compare the two.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Would the fact that the Yamaha outputs one volt and the Rotel needs 3 volts minimum also effect what I am hearing.
If those were the facts then you could right, but no, that's not the fact for the following reasons.

1) The Yamaha will definitively output more than 1V. The manual says 1V/470 ohms output impedance. The Rotel RMB-1075 should have much higher input impedance, likely in the order of 10,000 ohm or more, so the Yamaha pre-outs can provide much higher than 1V without being "loaded down". Audioholics tested several Yamaha AVRs before and most of them could output well over 2V.

For example, Gene reviewed the 3000, the 3050's ancestor.

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/rx-a3000/rx-a3000-measurements

Below was what Gene found:

"Yamaha RX-A3000 Preamplifier Measurements

I did some quick spot-checking on the RX-A3000 pre-amplifier gain structure to ensure it could be properly drive a wide assortment of power amplifier. My personal criteria for amplifier gain structure is that it should be able to hit full power when driven with 2Vrms. The RX-A3000 was able to deliver 3.3Vrms unclipped out of the analog multi channel outputs. Once I exceeded this output level, the auto protection circuits shut the receiver down. This is more than enough clean output voltage to drive any audio amplifier to clipping. "

2) The RMB-1075 does not need 3V minimum, it's sensitivity is specified as 1V.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
I certainly could have missed it, but what I didn't see was an explicit statement that YPAO was run again after the Rotel was connected.

AbbyDaddy - did you rerun YPAO after connecting the Rotel (and before connecting it)? If so, Peng is right - it should have set the output levels to give you equal loudness from a given volume setting, regardless of if the Rotel was connected or not. It tries to set "0 dB" at some reference level, so it would shift the relative volume setting and speaker levels if the amp was more or less powerful than the Yamaha.
 
AbbyDaddy

AbbyDaddy

Audioholic Intern
I did run YPAO before and after from 6 of 8 locations. I only did 6 because that's how many seats I have in my room. I realize that this was incorrect according to the Audyssey video that I watched because it included no depth changes. I'm too stupid, so I'm pulling the amp. Sorry that I bothered and offended anyone. Thank you.
 

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