AVR distortions from entry level to top level models

[PENG]

Anthem MRX 710​

Denon AVR-4520CI​

Pioneer Elite SC-89​

Except for the RX-V377, above graphs are from the S&V top pick list linked below.

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/top-picks-av-receivers#ZuV2dJsZZHQ7kTvG.97

If you study them carefully, their shapes/slopes and the THD+N from 0 to 10W, you will see why we can't just say going from a 70W AVR to a 140W AVR the difference is just 3 dB. Now if we all believe anything below 1% THD+N is not audible then the blanket statement could still be true, but keep in mind the above graphs are for an 8 ohm resistive load only. By extrapolation, one might reasonably assume the flag ship or near flagship models such as the Denon 4520, Marantz 7008 Yamaha 2040, NAD787, Pioneer SC89, Onkyo 3010 as shown above will likely have way better THD+N figures and shapes than the entry level models.

The data and graphs from AH right here are way better and with more details but there are as many available, so I am forced to go with S&V's (formerly HTM).

My point is, up to the point of diminishing return, we probably should compare power outputs and distortions together, even in pure direct mode (that's a given). The 70W AVRs tend to be the entry level models, as they drop the power rating, their other vital specs, such as THD typically drop as well. Some young and well trained ears such as Seth's could quite possibly hear the resulting differences.

All comments are welcome, hopefully no sarcasm and we can always agree to disagree.

And yes, I know THD+N is just one of the vital stats, but that's all I can easily find for now; and it certainly is not one that we should ignore. I do believe it is a major one to look at, as it is included in pretty much all bench tests.

Found this site that has some good links:

http://www.parallelhomeaudio.net/TypesAudioDistortion.html

They talk about a type F distortion, or Mental Distortion, it is hilarious.

Another interesting one by Roger Russell:

http://www.roger-russell.com/truth/truth.htm

 

[fmw]

It is an important point. Thanks for posting it. Power specifications are always based on a distortion level. The problem is that sometimes the manufacturers fail to say what the distortion level is at the specified maximum power dissipation.

 

[slipperybidness]

THD + N is the single most important spec on the entire spec sheet!

I don't even look at 1% THD + N. The spec that I follow is 0.1% THD + N

 

[PENG]

THD + N is the single most important spec on the entire spec sheet!

I don't even look at 1% THD + N. The spec that I follow is 0.1% THD + N

Same here, you wonder why I prefer Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, and Pioneer Elite (only their non class D ones), NAD, Anthem aren't bad but bad in terms of $ for the bang. The 4520 shows 0.005% right up to 150W, 8 ohms, they also benched well on 4 ohms and intermodulation distortions as well.

People can talk about the use of feedback all they want, but when you are talking about 0.006% that is 1/17th of 0.1%, feedback or not I really don't care much especially knowing Denon and Marantz both should know what they are knowing. I mean, both are still making high end amps for purist so they must know how to manage the use of negative feedback.

 

[PENG]

By the way, I just noticed the low level Denon AVR-2313CI seems to have the best graph for the $. 0.002% flat line up to 95W and very low distortions even at the first couple watts, that's in class A territory.

I seemed to remember Kurt has one of those, yes/no? If yes, any comments on that low cost unit?

 

[Swerd]

PENG – Thanks for posting this. It makes a compelling argument of what a good bargain modern AVRs are. Other amps can deliver more juice, but at a significantly higher price.

Where is herbu? I await his verbal synopsis of PENG's analysis, for those who are "graphically challenged".

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

No quite as flat-line as Denon's but still looks good to me, but then again I knew Onkyo can build a good amp section:

 

[Montucky]

And then you have Sony, whose power specs seem to be elusive on their website, and when they DO post "ratings," it's all at 6 ohms with 1% THD and ONE channel driven. Lol.

 

[PENG]

And then you have Sony, whose power specs seem to be elusive on their website, and when they DO post "ratings," it's all at 6 ohms with 1% THD and ONE channel driven. Lol.

That is true for some of their models, but they made a lot of models, some have very respectable bench tested power output numbers.

 

[slipperybidness]

To be fair, there isn't some great mystery surrounding amp technology. This has been down pat for several decades now. It's like you almost have to try to build a truly bad amp!

 

[KEW]

I seemed to remember Kurt has one of those, yes/no? If yes, any comments on that low cost unit?

I picked up a 2308ci off of CraigsList for around $70 as part of a $150 system for my GF's daughter. I checked it out enough to know it worked, but have procrastinated really putting the system through its paces to see what it can do!

Am I correct in assuming that the 2308 is an earlier version of the 2313 and the amp section has not likely changed much?

 

[PENG]

I picked up a 2308ci off of CraigsList for around $70 as part of a $150 system for my GF's daughter. I checked it out enough to know it worked, but have procrastinated really putting the system through its paces to see what it can do!

Am I correct in assuming that the 2308 is an earlier version of the 2313 and the amp section has not likely changed much?

I think that is a fair assumption. The 2308 and 2309 are 4 lbs heavier so they probably have more robust enclosures and heat sinks.

Take of look of the review on the 2308 by Gene.

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/avr-2308ci/avr-2308ci-measurements

At 0.1% THD+N into 4 ohms:

1 channel driven: 210W
2 channel driven: 190W

The distortions are also impressively low as measured by Gene.

So HTM/S&V was not the only one that gave it a rave review.

Now get your her some nice speakers. I bet it can drive Dennis Philharmonic 4 ohms floor standers as long as it is just a two channel stereo set up.

 

[PENG]

To be fair, there isn't some great mystery surrounding amp technology. This has been down pat for several decades now. It's like you almost have to try to build a truly bad amp!

I agree but if someone goes from a sub 20 pounder entry level unit to the mid range or near flag ship model he/she could hear improvements depending on their rooms and speakers. I am just trying to also agree with Seth, to a point.

Sometimes the audible differences could also be due to deteriorated components such as caps, and/or change in the transistor bias point over time, when people were comparing very old used equipment.

 

[tyhjaarpa]

I wanted to see how they compare directly so I made a combined chart out of those, don't know if there was kind of chart already available. But anyway here it is, not perfect but it did the job for me!

 

[PENG]

That's pretty good, though like you said it wasn't perfect but good for a quick snapshot comparison. You may be able to make it perfect if you first make the aspect ratio and size exactly the same. I am not asking you to even try because I know it will be very time consuming, not worth it at all.

Thanks again

 

[PENG]

The linked article below is copyrighted so I won't copy/paste, but please take a read about how difficult it was for people to tell the difference between a 35W tube amp and a 200W Denon SS amp. Every time I read Roger Russell's articles I have to wonder if he was still with McIntosh would he have said the same, and risk getting fired? The article does cover how amps can sound different too, but not much that you guys couldn't guess already.

http://www.roger-russell.com/truth/truth.htm#listening

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

The linked article below is copyrighted so I won't copy/paste

It is absolutely safe fair use if you quote small part of it and provide source

 

[PENG]

It is absolutely safe fair use if you quote small part of it and provide source

Thanks, I actually meant to provide the link, just forgot. It is there now. He obviously knows Dr. Floyd too. And he admitted he had done blind AB tests, thought he could hear the difference, but got it right only about 50% of the time. Very interesting article indeed, and easy to read.

 

[tyhjaarpa]

That's pretty good, though like you said it wasn't perfect but good for a quick snapshot comparison. You may be able to make it perfect if you first make the aspect ratio and size exactly the same. I am asking you to even try because I know it will be very time consuming, not worth it at all.

Thanks again

Actually I did some adjustments with image size/locationing to match both wattage and percentage lines so it should be pretty close but there is room for errors as I didn't want to use too much time on it.

 

[highfigh]

By the way, I just noticed the low level Denon AVR-2313CI seems to have the best graph for the $. 0.002% flat line up to 95W and very low distortions even at the first couple watts, that's in class A territory.

I seemed to remember Kurt has one of those, yes/no? If yes, any comments on that low cost unit?

I have one, too. I was using it for 2 channel and 2.1 until I started carrying Parasound and I think it sounded good, for an AVR that has to budget money for all of the extra channels, video switching and processing, AirPlay (which isn't cheap), DAC, two zones, etc. I had an AVR-990 before the 2313CI and that sounded good, too.

The sound quality is one of the reasons I haven't looked for other brands of receivers- I haven't seen anything that does video or audio better at the price, but I haven't tested Marantz, either.