Is buying a separate amp worth the money?

[Seth=L]

Seth, if it was that quick, then you really wouldn't be able to hear the effects of such "quick"= super short peaks that didn't even get registered (according to you) in the first place. Or may be I misunderstood your point.

I'm not trying to be dramatic, but I do get the overwhelming sense that some here place a little less significance on amplifier power than they should.

I've owned countless receivers and amplifiers and I rarely listen to anything at reference levels. I can still attest to having amplifiers and receivers reach obvious limitations. I don't have anything to prove it to anyone, so I guess we can just ignore that.

Many of the top posters on Audioholics now (which there are far fewer of them now) basically parrot the same things over and over and I'm going to generalize. "All receivers sound the same", "you aren't going to notice a difference between 50 and 100 watts", "So you're thinking of getting speaker A? Forget that, get the Philharmonic Audio whatever majobber" and so on.

 

[fmw]

I'm not trying to be dramatic, but I do get the overwhelming sense that some here place a little less significance on amplifier power than they should.

I've owned countless receivers and amplifiers and I rarely listen to anything at reference levels. I can still attest to having amplifiers and receivers reach obvious limitations. I don't have anything to prove it to anyone, so I guess we can just ignore that.

Many of the top posters on Audioholics now (which there are far fewer of them now) basically parrot the same things over and over and I'm going to generalize. "All receivers sound the same", "you aren't going to notice a difference between 50 and 100 watts", "So you're thinking of getting speaker A? Forget that, get the Philharmonic Audio whatever majobber" and so on.

If you have an SPL meter and a digital multimeter you can check for yourself. This process will be anything but perfect but good enough for home audio purposes:

Listen to some music at your normal listening position and watch the SPL meter. Get a feel for the average or typical reading. This isn't perfect but will be good enough for our purposes. Then put a test tone on and set the volume to that average SPL you decided upon. Measure the AC voltage across one of the speaker's terminals. Remove one of the wires and insert the meter between the removed wire and the binding post and measure the AC current. Multiply the results to arrive at average power dissipation or a reasonable facsimile of it.

You can do the same thing again with a peak in the sound to arrive at peak power dissipation. At that point you will have a decent or at least a better idea of your actual power usage. In my system those numbers are 1/2 watt average and 18 watts peak. I normally listen at 15db below reference or 70db average. Your mileage may differ but at least you will have a better idea about your mileage.

So let me comment on the quotes. All receivers do not sound the same. In fact they are designed to tailor the sound to various rooms. The amplifiers in those receivers, however, probably do sound the same. You wouldn't notice a difference between 50 watts and 100 watts if you are only dissipating 18 watts. Unused power capacity is simply unused. Finally, people on audio forums tend to recommend either what they have bought themselves or been recommended by others. I think the former is fine but, like you, I have a problem with parroting others.

Get your meters out and let us know what you discovered about your own power dissipation.

 

[Seth=L]

If you have an SPL meter and a digital multimeter you can check for yourself. This process will be anything but perfect but good enough for home audio purposes:

Listen to some music at your normal listening position and watch the SPL meter. Get a feel for the average or typical reading. This isn't perfect but will be good enough for our purposes. Then put a test tone on and set the volume to that average SPL you decided upon. Measure the AC voltage across one of the speaker's terminals. Remove one of the wires and insert the meter between the removed wire and the binding post and measure the AC current. Multiply the results to arrive at average power dissipation or a reasonable facsimile of it.

You can do the same thing again with a peak in the sound to arrive at peak power dissipation. At that point you will have a decent or at least a better idea of your actual power usage. In my system those numbers are 1/2 watt average and 18 watts peak. I normally listen at 15db below reference or 70db average. Your mileage may differ but at least you will have a better idea about your mileage.

So let me comment on the quotes. All receivers do not sound the same. In fact they are designed to tailor the sound to various rooms. The amplifiers in those receivers, however, probably do sound the same. You wouldn't notice a difference between 50 watts and 100 watts if you are only dissipating 18 watts. Unused power capacity is simply unused. Finally, people on audio forums tend to recommend either what they have bought themselves or been recommended by others. I think the former is fine but, like you, I have a problem with parroting others.

Get your meters out and let us know what you discovered about your own power dissipation.

I don't have any meters.

Maybe I'm just coming to terms that I'm not in my element anymore. I've fallen too far behind to want to try to catch up.

 

[ski2xblack]

fmw, I've compared such measurements to THIS online calculator, and it's pretty darn close. (Caveat to Seth or anyone else who want to determine how much power they actually use: be wary of inflated speaker sensitivity specs when entering the data.)

 

[lsiberian]

Before comparing amps I strongly suggest you convert the wattage ratings into dBW so you can get the actual gain of each amplifier. From that point the math becomes linear.

You take your seating distance in meters from your speakers subtracting 3dB for each meter beyond 1 meter.

So let's say your speakers are 90dB per 1 watt at 1 meter

and you sit 3 meters away. 90dB - (3-1) * 3 = 84dB

Now you add the gain for your receiver 50 watts = 17 dBW gain

Add to your speaker's 1 watt volume at your sitting position and you get 101 dB peak volume. Now you want to baseline your volume level to see if it's correct for your preferences. You can measure your preferred baseline level with a simple SPL meter as you watch a typical movie. It varies between 60 and 70 dB for most folks, but some do like it louder. So 101 - 30 dB = 71dB. If that's my above or at my preferred baseline volume I don't need more amplification. If it isn't more amplification could be beneficial

 

[fmw]

fmw, I've compared such measurements to THIS online calculator, and it's pretty darn close. (Caveat to Seth or anyone else who want to determine how much power they actually use: be wary of inflated speaker sensitivity specs when entering the data.)

My major difficulty with the calculators is that they can't figure boundary gain so they tend to provide an anechoic result. This one attempts to deal with boundary gain but, of course, the user won't be able to put in a figure without doing some measurements. The calculators are very conservative so one should consider them to be safe at least. But since most of them recommend as much as 4 times the actual power requirement they can cause some unnecessary spending. I don't think there is a very good substitute for measuring. It is very much more accurate. It is easy to see why people buy more amplifier than they need "just in case."

 

[fmw]

I don't have any meters.

Maybe I'm just coming to terms that I'm not in my element anymore. I've fallen too far behind to want to try to catch up.

Most of this stuff isn't that important. I was just trying get you thinking about how sound quality changes with volume level and your reaction to that may not be stress on the amplifiers. Or it might be depending on far you went. People like me want to know those things but don't get hung up on it. Your best bet is to pop a cool one and enjoy your system.

 

[Rickster71]

Aside from power requirements, that have already been covered.

A few other considerations in favor of a separate amp are, less heat in AVR due to less load (perhaps extending its life).
It may be cheaper to one day upgrade to a prepro for the latest features (keeping amp) than buying an entire new AVR.

 

[Steve81]

The calculators are very conservative so one should consider them to be safe at least.

By neglecting in-room reinforcement, the calculators are conservative to an extent, though in many cases this is at least partially offset by the manufacturer providing a "liberal" sensitivity rating. One other item that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is the effect of room EQ on such calculations. Audyssey for example allows for a maximum boost of 9dB; needless to say, depending on the range boosted, that can have a huge impact on effective power requirements.

In any event, my advice is relatively simple. If the OP wants to try an amp to see if it improves his movie watching experience, by all means, try it out. The Model 5000 has proven itself to be quite potent on the test bench, and it's relatively inexpensive. Moreover, if the OP finds it makes no difference, he's got 30 days to return it for a refund.

 

[fmw]

Aside from power requirements, that have already been covered.

A few other considerations in favor of a separate amp are, less heat in AVR due to less load (perhaps extending its life).
It may be cheaper to one day upgrade to a prepro for the latest features (keeping amp) than buying an entire new AVR.

Reasonable but don't forget that Pre-pros are more expensive than receivers. Up in my closet is an excellent 12 year old Pioneer AV receiver that I replaced recently mostly because I thought it would appreciate a rest. It works perfectly. I've never had the slightest issue with heat in an AVR. If you have then you would naturally see things differently from me. My point has always been that accessory amplifiers are usually purchased because they are wanted, not because they are needed. But, of course, there is nothing wrong with wanting something.

 

[PENG]

I'm not trying to be dramatic, but I do get the overwhelming sense that some here place a little less significance on amplifier power than they should.

Agree, people tend to exaggerate a little to make their points.

I've owned countless receivers and amplifiers and I rarely listen to anything at reference levels. I can still attest to having amplifiers and receivers reach obvious limitations. I don't have anything to prove it to anyone, so I guess we can just ignore that.

Same here, though not countless but probably up to 10, and the weakest one was still a decent Denon 1705 so I probably have not experienced the kind of limitations that you may be talking about, but yes I could push the 1705, 1912 and RX-V659 to near their limits.

Many of the top posters on Audioholics now (which there are far fewer of them now) basically parrot the same things over and over and I'm going to generalize. "All receivers sound the same", "you aren't going to notice a difference between 50 and 100 watts", "So you're thinking of getting speaker A? Forget that, get the Philharmonic Audio whatever majobber" and so on.

If they parrot things they actually understand, I think it is fine and normal. I don't know why people, and you are not the only one, often quote people saying "All receivers sound the same". I don't recall top posters ever made such blatant and blanket statements. Don't they typically said so with qualifications such as "when driven within their limits", "at low to moderate volume", "in pure direct", "with no dsp engaged" and/or a combinations of such qualifications ? I don't mean to split hair, so if you are also just exaggerating it a little to make your point then okay I get it.

Regarding the often cited 3 dB difference between 50 and 100W thing, it is theoretically true but I do agree it is not a good idea to be used as a general statement because the devil is in the details.

 

[PENG]

fmw made a good point regarding prepros pricing. If I had not spent almost 5K before taxes on my last two prepro in the past 3 years, and upgrade my L/R/C or just the L/R speakers instead, I would have been further ahead. Prepros are probably not cost effective to make due to volume.

 

[orion8301]

Digging through Craigslist in Atlanta and eBay last night, after filtering the trash out, it became clear what a great deal the $600 5x125 watt Outlaw Audio 5000 series amp is.

Many have stated an Amp may provide little benefit, but I'll always have that nagging, "What if" feeling if I don't give it a shot. Like most people, I don't have money to burn at my age, but $600 is something I can save for over several months. Giving up some other the things like beer or a few lunches here and there will drum up the money.

Is there another 3 channel amp as powerful or affordable as the 5 channel Outlaw audio? Emotiva has their XPA-3, but for the same cost I may as well get a 5 channel Outlaw. Do you guys know of a new 3 channel for less?

Ignore any spelling errors, this was done on an iPhone.

 

[KEW]

Many of the top posters on Audioholics now (which there are far fewer of them now) basically parrot the same things over and over ... "So you're thinking of getting speaker A? Forget that, get the Philharmonic Audio whatever majobber".

HEY! I resemble that remark!

I recommend Philharmonic products because Dennis consistently designs a speaker that outperforms the competition (assuming accurate reproduction is what you want in a speaker)!

If you read my comparison of the AA Monitors to the Wave Crest HVL-1's you should recognize that the AA Monitors were definitely a better value and more accurate, but you will see that I also did my best to describe the differences in the sound of the two speakers.

I know not everyone is looking for the same thing. I have a set of Klipsch for my HT. They definitely lag behind several other pairs of speakers when it comes to listening critically to music, but for HT, the Klipsch are exciting speakers!

However, if someone tells me they are looking for speakers for music (and especially if they listen to Classical or Jazz - which usually use acoustic instruments), and a Philharmonic product fits their budget, I will likely recommend a Philharmonic product.

But I can understand your skepticism, so I have a proposition for you:

I will ship my AA Monitors to you. You have been listening to lots of speakers over the years, and by your tone in this thread, I expect you to give your honest opinion of how the AA Monitors compare to whatever you favorite speakers are (hopefully you have something that can reasonably be compared to a $220 pair of speakers). In return, I would like you to present a review here and tell us what you heard!
The last thing I want to do is recommend speakers to someone and for them to be disappointed with them. Consequently, if you can help to describe this speaker and it's strength and weaknesses, it will give a better reference for people considering these!

I will pay return shipping. Why am I doing this? Well, like most of us on AH, audio is a passion that I enjoy sharing! I have been hoping to find someone here who is well respected, has no reason to be biased, and who I am comfortable won't skip town with my speakers. If you find speakers that are better, then I need to change my tune - I'd rather be correct than win the argument!!!

Are you game?

 

[Alex2507]

Digging through Craigslist in Atlanta and eBay last night, after filtering the trash out, it became clear what a great deal the $600 5x125 watt Outlaw Audio 5000 series amp is.

Many have stated an Amp may provide little benefit, but I'll always have that nagging, "What if" feeling if I don't give it a shot.

Keep an eye on Audiogon and the AVS Forum Classifieds for local stuff. I wouldn't dish out money on a 125 watt per channel/5 channel amp. Like Swerd, I amp up my mains and let the rec'r do the rest.

I went through a similar stage wondering 'what if'. I went through a couple of different 2 channel amps, the two different sets of Marantz Monoblocks and finally an Aragon 2007 that I bought off KEW. It's too long a story for me to type out but the Aragon 2007 running 7 speakers did sound the best but here's the catch: it didn't sound significantly better than just the rec'r driving the speakers at the volume that I listen at. I packed up that amp, used my two small Marantz monoblocks for the mains, ditched the rear surrounds and called it done.

My reasoning was that the space taken up by the Aragon 2007 and the extra wiring wasn't worth the ever so slight advantage that I would mostly notice with a couple of pieces of music that I use to demo speakers with. The little monoblocks give me 80% of the advantage with 20% of the hassle. But I had to have that Aragon to know. I live in a condo so space is important to me and I keep the volume low on account of the neighbors.

BTW, the Aragon has been packed up and for sale for maybe a year. I'd ship it to you if you were interested. Shipping and insurance would probably be close to $100 if not more. In your application this amp would be able to strech its legs, as they say.

I have a proposition for you:



Are you game?

Do it, Seth, do it!

 

[TheWarrior]

Many of the top posters on Audioholics now (which there are far fewer of them now) basically parrot the same things over and over and I'm going to generalize. "All receivers sound the same", "you aren't going to notice a difference between 50 and 100 watts", "So you're thinking of getting speaker A? Forget that, get the Philharmonic Audio whatever majobber" and so on.

You really should spend $200 and get a pair of those speakers. You will understand why KEW and I (and whomever else) keeps recommending them. The bass they produce is outstanding, with a perfectly crossed tweeter that has even dispersion. They're dirt cheap cause the guy who makes them, does it as a hobby, he doesn't profit from them.

On topic, yes I agree that Outlaw would be perfect! There's many situations where the best solution is let the receiver be a preamp, and power the rear channels. One power supply shouldn't be responsible for providing the oommph to 7 speakers when a quiet scene suddenly becomes loud, and sustained, especially in that size room.

And another thank you to OP for the incredibly detailed first post!

 

[highfigh]

Before comparing amps I strongly suggest you convert the wattage ratings into dBW so you can get the actual gain of each amplifier. From that point the math becomes linear.

You take your seating distance in meters from your speakers subtracting 3dB for each meter beyond 1 meter.

So let's say your speakers are 90dB per 1 watt at 1 meter

and you sit 3 meters away. 90dB - (3-1) * 3 = 84dB

Now you add the gain for your receiver 50 watts = 17 dBW gain

Add to your speaker's 1 watt volume at your sitting position and you get 101 dB peak volume. Now you want to baseline your volume level to see if it's correct for your preferences. You can measure your preferred baseline level with a simple SPL meter as you watch a typical movie. It varies between 60 and 70 dB for most folks, but some do like it louder. So 101 - 30 dB = 71dB. If that's my above or at my preferred baseline volume I don't need more amplification. If it isn't more amplification could be beneficial

The SPL loss of output is 6dB for doubling the distance from where is was measured, not for each meter beyond one meter- it's an inverse square relationship and in a reverberant space, doubling the distance won't usually result in that amount of loss, but it's close. That 1 Watt is an important point, too. What's measured as 1W on one speaker may result in a total of 5W of output without the subwoofer, if the speaker levels are set incorrectly or the Mode is set to 5 channel Stereo.

I think the hearing aid industry would love for more people to listen at the reference level. Anyone using the reference level on a regular basis should wear hearing protection, IMO. Also, apps for smart phones allow measuring SPL, do RTA, tone generator and acting as an oscilloscope.

 

[Swerd]

Digging through Craigslist in Atlanta and eBay last night, after filtering the trash out, it became clear what a great deal the $600 5x125 watt Outlaw Audio 5000 series amp is.

Yes. Outlaw has a good reputation, and that price beats my cheapskate spec of $1/Watt.

Many have stated an Amp may provide little benefit, but I'll always have that nagging, "What if" feeling if I don't give it a shot. Like most people, I don't have money to burn at my age, but $600 is something I can save for over several months. Giving up some other the things like beer or a few lunches here and there will drum up the money.

I think you do understand the options. Maybe the best way to think of all this is that your Yamaha AVR has one large power supply transformer that can drive up to 7 channels. If you add an external amp, such as that Outlaw, you aren't getting truly more powerful amplification, but you are getting the benefit of an additional power supply transformer. In that sense, you are gaining 'head room'.

Is there another 3 channel amp as powerful or affordable as the 5 channel Outlaw audio? Emotiva has their XPA-3, but for the same cost I may as well get a 5 channel Outlaw. Do you guys know of a new 3 channel for less?

There are now few other 3 channel amps available.

AVA is an Internet Direct amp maker/seller, and they do offer a 3 channel amp at $1599, nearly triple the price of the Outlaw. I am familiar with AVA, and can recommend it's products. They are solidly built, made in the USA, and perform as good as or better than any other audio amps at any price. But I doubt if you want to pay that price .

 

[PENG]

The 3dB loss of output is for doubling the distance from where is was measured, not for each meter beyond one meter- it's an inverse square relationship and in a reverberant space, doubling the distance won't really result in that amount of loss, but it's close. That 1 Watt is an important point, too. What's measured as 1W on one speaker may result in a total of 5W of output without the subwoofer, if the speaker levels are set incorrectly or the Mode is set to 5 channel Stereo.

I think the hearing aid industry would love for more people to listen at the reference level. Anyone using the reference level on a regular basis should wear hearing protection, IMO. Also, apps for smart phones allow measuring SPL, do RTA, tone generator and acting as an oscilloscope.

If you are talking about the inverse square law, then when you stated 3dB loss for doubling the distance you must have meant 6dB right? Sorry I am sure that was a typo but we have to get it right.

By the way, Isiberian was talking about dBW, not dB. He may have his own rationale with other things factored in, so I won't comment on his method, or math without knowing his basis and assumptions.

 

[fmw]

If you are talking about the inverse square law, then when you stated 3dB loss for doubling the distance you must have meant 6dB right? Sorry I am sure that was a typo but we have to get it right.

By the way, Isiberian was talking about dBW, not dB. He may have his own rationale with other things factored in, so I won't comment on his method, or math without knowing his basis and assumptions.

When you factor in boundary gain, 3db per meter may be overstating it. The problem is that factoring in boundary gain requires measurements and, if you can measure it, then there is no need for the formula. I think the calculators are better than nothing but, frankly, not really very good and a poor substitute for measurements.