How much power do I need?

[fmw]

Then I'll make it simpler. You're wrong about power not mattering in a receiver.

You're the expert.

 

[Adam]

You're the expert.

Mind if I give you my boss's phone number?

Nah, I know that I'm not. I just don't think that you are, either. I don't mean that in an a-hole kind of way. I just have a decent amount of experience with receivers, and receivers paired with amps, and I don't really listen very loudly. However, I know a number of folks that do, and at the levels that they'd like - lower powered receivers do not sound nearly as good. I think that we're on the same page about them operating outside of their design space. It's entirely possible that we're defining "low" in a different way. My Marantz NR-1504, which is rated at 50W into two channels at 8 Ohms, sounded great at lower volumes - but it sounds utterly lacking at anywhere near reference levels. My Denon AVR-E400 (as well as the year-newer S900 model), rated at 90W apples to apples, completely blows it away at reference levels. I started to tear up when listening to the S900 it sounded that good. The NR-1504, and slightly higher powered NR-1604, left me wanting the entire time. The NR-1504 at 3dB lower didn't keep up with E400...even though by your general statements it should have. It wasn't anywhere near close. It just sounded dull, whereas the E400 was spot on. In the past, you've attributed that to possible being the auto calibration, but both of those units have the same Audyssey system, and I ran them in the same way. To have both Denons excel, and both Marantz units fall short, is too much of a coincidence for it to be me setting them up wrong. That, and my Pioneer, Onkyo, and Sony all sound dynamic at reference levels.

 

[PENG]

If you act quickly you can get the Denon AVR-X2100W for $399

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/denon-in-command-1295w-7-2-ch-4k-ultra-hd-and-3d-pass-through-a-v-home-theater-receiver-black/1312002409.p?id=mp1312002409&skuId=1312002409

This thing should offer marginally more power than the E400 that Adam's mentioned.

http://usa.denon.com/us/downloads/productdownloads?_ga=1.159487741.1599082984.1448229675

 

[PENG]

http://www.cdmasteringservices.com/dynamicdeath.htm

http://mastering-media.blogspot.ca/2008/09/loudness-peak-vs-average-level.html

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/1007/

Adam, I am sure you know that already, that the power you need depends on many factors, one being the type of music you listen to. I do listen to classical that involves grand pianos and cymbals but I don't listen to anything close to 90 dB peaks, so the article in the last link above still won't apply to me. That's why I found no difference between my 300W amp and my Denon AVR. You probably listen to classical music as well and perhaps that's why 3 dB of headroom is important to you. You said you didn't listen loud but without knowing the SPL it is hard to know what that means. I don't listen loud and I mean not higher than 75 dB most of the time from where I sit. So my amps typically would draw less than 0.5W per channel and any of my amps and AVRs have no problem providing 20 dB of peaks that are not very common, not even in classical music. Rocks and pops typically don't have much peaks.

 

[dp412]

If you act quickly you can get the Denon AVR-X2100W for $399

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/denon-in-command-1295w-7-2-ch-4k-ultra-hd-and-3d-pass-through-a-v-home-theater-receiver-black/1312002409.p?id=mp1312002409&skuId=1312002409

This thing should offer marginally more power than the E400 that Adam's mentioned.

http://usa.denon.com/us/downloads/productdownloads?_ga=1.159487741.1599082984.1448229675

It looks like they ran out of stock. I found this Yamaha at a similar price point though.

The Yamaha RX-V677 is currently on sale at Amazon for $380 (42% off). It's rated to put out 90W * 2 channels.

From what everyone has said, it sounds like 90W should be sufficient for these tower speakers that are rated for 80W-200W, even if that 90W power drops when using all 5 speakers.

 

[PENG]

It looks like they ran out of stock. I found this Yamaha at a similar price point though.

The Yamaha RX-V677 is currently on sale at Amazon for $380 (42% off). It's rated to put out 90W * 2 channels.

From what everyone has said, it sounds like 90W should be sufficient for these tower speakers that are rated for 80W-200W, even if that 90W power drops when using all 5 speakers.

That's a good one too. I only prefer Denon because the 2100 comes with Audyssey XT that can do a decent job dialling in a subwoofer. Without a subwoofer, power can become more of an issue.

 

[dp412]

That's a good one too. I only prefer Denon because the 2100 comes with Audyssey XT that can do a decent job dialling in a subwoofer. Without a subwoofer, power can become more of an issue.

That makes sense, thanks. Does anyone here have any opinions on Onkyo? I'm wondering if I should consider the Onkyo TX-NR636. It's currently $329 and provides 95W * 2 channels. Are there any reliability horror stories I should know about when it comes to Onkyo?

 

[PENG]

If the X2100W is sold out at Best Buy, you can pay $75 more to get it from Amazon.com. I think 5 lbs more of AVR and Audyssey XT probably is worth the extra $ in the long run.

 

[3db]

If the X2100W is sold out at Best Buy, you can pay $75 more to get it from Amazon.com. I think 5 lbs more of AVR and Audyssey XT probably is worth the extra $ in the long run.

Step into the dark side YOU have.

 

[Ty Wayne]

Or, find an extra 50 bucks somehow and get a refurb Denon x3100. It has 105 watts and it has pre-outs so you can get an external amp down the road for more power.

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/denavrx3100w/denon-avr-x3100w-7.2-receiver-wi-fi/bluetooth/airplay/1.html#!specifications

 

[KenM10759]

I got banged around a bit by some folks here about receiver power when I first joined up and I've learned a LOT in a few weeks by going out and listening to some. All I can say is be wary of "watts per channel" ratings and how it relates to actual SPL with all channels driven.

Few makers bother giving that.

 

[PENG]

I got banged around a bit by some folks here about receiver power when I first joined up and I've learned a LOT in a few weeks by going out and listening to some. All I can say is be wary of "watts per channel" ratings and how it relates to actual SPL with all channels driven.

Few makers bother giving that.

Sorry Ken, I can't resist to counter wary this one a little, just a little if you don't mind. The ACD AVR rating (notably marketed by HK, less so by NAD) is not an effective way to spend money on. Yamaha, and D&M to a lesser extent did it right by focusing more on the amp section so every channel can put out the best output they can achieve given the design/build budget, but no all channel at the same time. In two channel driven, they typically exceed their stated specs by a comfortable margin especially into 4 ohms. That allows the AVR to be lighter, and more dynamic in real life application. D&M even managed to turn out better ACD numbers than HK and NAD in bench tests after bench tests in recent years. Those were more or less apple to apple comparisons and sometimes in terms of watts related actual SPL too (for reference, see AH sites sweep tests for power output). Cheers!

 

[PENG]

Step into the dark side YOU have.

You know I am a Yammy fan too, and would switch to the other side as soon as they include Audyssey or better EQ for subs, or when I get a closer to perfect room. Try a D&M and you may even join our side too. There are good deals out there for their last year models, such as the SR7009, I just installed one, it's great.

 

[herbu]

I'm trying to find a receiver for under $400 that will adequately power the XL7 speakers

dp412,
From all these great responses, I hope you gleaned the following:
1) You won't be able to HEAR the difference in power of any AVR in the $400 range.
2) At normal levels, any $400 AVR won't even come close to using its max power.
3) If you like LOUD, get an AVR with preouts, so you can add an amp later, (if you want).
4) Focus on features, not power. (You can add power, not features.)
5) Denon/Marantz and Yamaha are generally considered good choices here.

Now that you're gonna focus on FEATURES, feel free to ask more questions if you don't understand. YPAO, Audyssey, preouts, sub mgmt, dual sub mgmt... you got all that, right?

 

[KenM10759]

Sorry Ken, I can't resist to counter wary this one a little, just a little if you don't mind. The ACD AVR rating (notably marketed by HK, less so by NAD) is not an effective way to spend money on. Yamaha, and D&M to a lesser extent did it right by focusing more on the amp section so every channel can put out the best output they can achieve given the design/build budget, but no all channel at the same time. In two channel driven, they typically exceed their stated specs by a comfortable margin especially into 4 ohms. That allows the AVR to be lighter, and more dynamic in real life application. D&M even managed to turn out better ACD numbers than HK and NAD in bench tests after bench tests in recent years. Those were more or less apple to apple comparisons and sometimes in terms of watts related actual SPL too (for reference, see AH sites sweep tests for power output). Cheers!

What are "ACD numbers"? I don't mind your comments PENG. I will just say that my KEF speakers seem good enough that I clearly hear a sound quality difference (improvement) between my older Denon and my new NAD receivers. Power isn't everything to everyone, sometimes sound quality (or perceived sound profile) matters to a listener so the combination of source, amplification and speakers all play a role in the output, then filtered through the listener's ears and brain. I just got what is pleasing to me and I'm not going to discourage anyone from taking the same path or whatever way works for them.

 

[PENG]

What are "ACD numbers"?

All channel driven power output.

 

[fmw]

One must understand that all channel driven is not a terribly meaningful specification because all channels are rarely driven and when they are it is for a short duration.

 

[PENG]

One must understand that all channel driven is not a terribly meaningful specification because all channels are rarely driven and when they are it is for a short duration.

I agree, and if I have to choose I would value the one that has more capable amps than the one with more capable power supply, to a point. More specifically, 2 dB higher two channel output with 2 dB lower all channels output is better than the other around. Obviously nice to have both, but that's not always possible. There used to be a myth that HK offers more output just because their all channel driven outputs were stated as almost the same as their two channel outputs, but in fact they offered less overall output in a given price bracket. NAD appears to be blowing a similar horn, just less so than the old HKs.

 

[PENG]

Power isn't everything to everyone, sometimes sound quality (or perceived sound profile) matters to a listener so the combination of source, amplification and speakers all play a role in the output, then filtered through the listener's ears and brain. I just got what is pleasing to me and I'm not going to discourage anyone from taking the same path or whatever way works for them.

Fair enough, but once you past the point of diminishing return, sound quality becomes not much of an issue because all amp manufacturers design/build their amps to sound accurate to the point (e.g. very low distortions) that most humans cannot easily tell the difference in sound quality. Even Roger Russel of McIntosh had alluded to something like that. So it actually does boil down to power that practically matters most. Amps job is to amplify power, after all.

We all know many people claim they could heard differences between AVRs, amps, preamps, DACs etc., you name it and they could heard differences with no sound processing, i.e. just from amping. I won't get into why I think they hear what they hear as I am quite sure you know my opinion on that. I do try to alert the OP or others who ask similar questions that there are other angles to look at this thing. At the end, they may choose based what they perceive, believe, and/or strictly on specs and test data, or something in between.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...I will just say that my KEF speakers seem good enough that I clearly hear a sound quality difference (improvement) between my older Denon and my new NAD receivers. ....

Oh, but how was this test performed? And yes, it matters to the question what was actually heard/perceived vs what was imagined to be heard/perceived.