Would a matched pair of center speakers be good for stereo music?

Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
I've on and off thought about trying to pick up a pair of Infinity IL36c center speakers and attempting to use them as a stereo left and right speaker pair. It's my understanding that the addition of the midrange relieves a lot of stress off the tweeter allowing it to do what it does best and tasking the upper midrange to a more appropriate driver.

What kind of stereo image could I expect with such a pairing?

Right now I have a pair of IL10s (same series) but they don't have a midrange and only have one 6.5" mid-bass driver. Now the IL10 is a ported speaker, but I used some high density poly foam to seal the ports as I prefer the more taught and less pronounced bass response. I've had these speakers for almost 15 years and I plan to keep them as long as possible, I really love them. I'm just wondering if I would love the IL36c as a pair.

EDIT:

Specifications for both speakers.

IL10

  • sculpted, 1-1/2"-thick, anti-resonant front baffle design
  • video-shielded
  • frequency response 56-22,000 Hz (±3dB)
  • 8-ohm impedance
  • sensitivity 88 dB
  • handles up to 150 watts
  • onyx anigre vinyl finish, with platinum grilles
  • 15-5/8"H x 8-1/2"W x 11-1/2"D
  • warranty: 5 years


IL36c

  • video-shielded
  • acoustic suspension enclosure
  • frequency response 55-22,000 Hz (±3dB)
  • 8-ohm impedance
  • sensitivity 91 dB
  • handles up to 175 watts
  • vinyl finish
  • 23-1/16"W x 9-1/16"H x 13-1/2"D
  • warranty: 5 years


 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
I don't see a problem with it at all. I think you would get the best results by maintaining the horizontal orientation.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I can't give a technical answer or any rules of thumb, but I can share my experience with a somewhat similar situation.

I have a pair of Energy RC-10's. I think they are great speakers for the $220/pair they go for when on sale at Frys.

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/energy_rc10.htm
When they are on sale, the other speakers in the series are on sale as well:
RC-LCR center $220 each

RC-70 tower $270 each

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/energy-reference-connoisseur-rc-70-surround-speaker-system#O333y6ZLAkrjdjQ8.97
I have generally preferred a higher quality BS speaker with subs over equally priced towers. But at these prices I decided to see what I might be missing (dynamics? more solid mid-bass? etc.) Since I live close to a Frys and they have a satisfaction guarantee, I decided to see how the center and tower compared and if either was worth the extra coin. For me, in my room, with my type of music and normal listening levels, I was surprised to find that I preferred the RC-10's to either of the more expensive configurations in the RC series. Here are my comments on the center (post #4):

I expected the RC-LCR to be more dynamic with the dual woofers, however; the RC-10 matched it for everything I threw at it. I played it loud to try and reach the RC-10's limits, but it seems a quality set of drivers and took what I threw at it without sound degradation. I think it is understood that the LCR will go louder, but we are talking extremely loud before this would be realized. I could tell no difference in the mid bass, but the RC-10's image like crazy and had much better mid-highs. Love the look of the dual 2" drivers in the LCR's, but not a fan of the sound!
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/center-huh-yeah-what-is-it-good-for.93885/

The RC-70's were not as tight nor as dynamic. My first thought is cabinet resonance. In any case, I feel that the RC-10's are the best of the Energy RC series.

Of course this has no direct bearing on the Infinities you are looking at, except to say "the differences in the individual speaker designs may be more substantial than any generalities you can make about the configurations!"

As an aside - Since I did this comparison, TheWarrior has listened to my RC-10's with his very sensitive 29 year old ears and pointed out to me some distortion which I could hear after he directed me to it, but never noticed on my own, consequently I cannot recommend the RC-10's without a careful audition.
 
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Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
It's my understanding that the IL10 and IL36c are sort of the gems of the Interlude series, aside from the enormous IL60 with its problematic internal amplifier.
 
tyhjaarpa

tyhjaarpa

Audioholic Field Marshall
I don't see any problems doing that. Would it be improvement, I can't tell.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Ok. I'm a little confused now. The IL36c, which has a mid range driver, has a lower crossover point for the tweeter at 2500Hz than the IL10 which is at 2800Hz. If it matters the crossover point for the midrange on the IL36c is 800Hz. I would have thought the crossover point on a 3 way design for the tweeter would be higher than a coincidental 2 way from the same series.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Ok. I'm a little confused now. The IL36c, which has a mid range driver, has a lower crossover point for the tweeter at 2500Hz than the IL10 which is at 2800Hz. If it matters the crossover point for the midrange on the IL36c is 800Hz. I would have thought the crossover point on a 3 way design for the tweeter would be higher than a coincidental 2 way from the same series.
I'm with you, that definitely seems counter-intuitive!
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Ok. I'm a little confused now. The IL36c, which has a mid range driver, has a lower crossover point for the tweeter at 2500Hz than the IL10 which is at 2800Hz. If it matters the crossover point for the midrange on the IL36c is 800Hz. I would have thought the crossover point on a 3 way design for the tweeter would be higher than a coincidental 2 way from the same series.
I agree, it does seem counter intuitive. But when did common sense matter when it comes to selling mass-market speakers.

The difference may come down to how well the IL36 midrange and the IL10 mid woofer handle high frequencies up to their crossover points.

If the tweeter can handle 2500 Hz without distortion, the difference between 2500 and 2800 may not matter as far as the tweeter is concerned.

Does Infinity say anything about the crossover slopes, such as 12 or 24 dB/octave?
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Right now I have a pair of IL10s (same series) but they don't have a midrange and only have one 6.5" mid-bass driver. Now the IL10 is a ported speaker, but I used some high density poly foam to seal the ports as I prefer the more taught and less pronounced bass response.
The other (obvious?) difference between the IL10 and IL36, besides the presence or absence of a port, is the IL36 has two woofers. It makes the IL36 more sensitive, 91 vs. 88 dB. When played at the same volume (moving the same amount of air) two woofers will each move back & forth less than one woofer. That should make less distortion below 800 Hz.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Ok. I'm a little confused now. The IL36c, which has a mid range driver, has a lower crossover point for the tweeter at 2500Hz than the IL10 which is at 2800Hz. If it matters the crossover point for the midrange on the IL36c is 800Hz. I would have thought the crossover point on a 3 way design for the tweeter would be higher than a coincidental 2 way from the same series.
You would think that. The problem is try and do it!

Centers are a particular problem, and three ways a perpetual problem.

First three ways. A decent mid range is a formidable affair, and wide band mid ranges far and few between, even rarer if you want high power and wide bandwidth. Also the choice actually gets worse rather than better. There are no really good cheap mid range drivers. Either you have limited bandwidth and or power handling and usually both.

This is important as to make a three way that sounds in any way reasonable the crossover points need to be three octaves apart. You can just about get away with 2.5 octaves.

The ideal is to have the mid range pretty much cover the speech discrimination band. That means crossover points at 350 to 400 Hz and 4 KHz on the upper end. However the driver bandwidth must be greater than that, or you can't design a functional crossover.

The low crossover point demands high power handing capacity which finds itself at odds wilh wide band width.

The speaker you are talking about, will not be very good, and not something that would attract me.

Now the center. The trouble comes, in that most want the speaker horizontal, so a two way gives you a horrid lobing pattern and exacerbates room problems, by reinforcing floor and ceiling reflections, which it is best to minimize.

The best solution I'm convinced, is a full ranger, or coaxial. Full rangers that are any good are as rare as hen's teeth. However I have a good one in one of my systems, it has excellent speech clarity without shout at low volume. It is in out condo where we can't blast the system. The 4" JW module has fantastic speech clarity even at very low volumes. That driver appeared in 1959 by the way. I'm certain it is still the best of the bunch. That really brings home to me the paucity of study and creativity in driver design over nearly sixty years now!

The only decent coaxials to source are from SEAS, and they are expensive. In addition for high power you need two of them for good power handling in the lower octaves. In addition the driver with the tweeter connected will need to be central and the other driver to one side or the other. Nothing wrong with that, but the marketing boys will nix it as it looks strange.

So that means that you end up with a three way center. Doing it on the cheap, is very difficult.

In addition the central mid and tweeter look at a wide baffle. Not the best for imaging, and certainly not the best for your application. For a center acceptable.

I have been designing a cost effective HT speaker system with high WAV for months now. The left and rights were the easy part. You get two larger drivers to handle the power range.

The center is a problem. I have a nice design now, crossover points are 350 HZ and 2.5 KHz. Just enough band width from a $30 mid to do it. However in that band, power handling will be 30 watts. To get high power shoots cost effective right out of the water, and so would a mid range able to be crossed at 3.5 to 4.0 KHz and both would really drive the cost.

A coaxial works very well indeed as you get a nice cone of coverage and minimal interference with the mains.

I'm certain having three identical speakers for the front three is less than ideal.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
@TLS Guy

The way I had envisioned using them was for stereo only and with the speakers placed vertically rather than horizontally. No "center" speaker would be in use, this would be stereo only.

I fully realize that speakers of this caliber are not ones that you would choose, but would you say such an arrangement would be inferior to the Infinity IL10 speakers that I currently have?
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
The way I had envisioned using them was for stereo only and with the speakers placed vertically rather than horizontally. No "center" speaker would be in use, this would be stereo only.

I fully realize that speakers of this caliber are not ones that you (TLS Guy) would choose, but would you say such an arrangement would be inferior to the Infinity IL10 speakers that I currently have?
The direct answer to your question is 'we don't know'. That's why our answers rambled off in various ways. As an uninformed guess, I'd say you probably won't notice much of a difference, other than the greater sensitivity from using a pair of the IL36c speakers. But I could easily be wrong. So it probably comes down to cost. You already have the IL10s. What will it cost to get a pair of the IL36s?

I spent a few minutes looking for frequency response curves of these speakers, but found none. I did find photos showing the backs of the IL10 & IL36c. The IL10 (but not the IL36c) has two sets of binding posts so that you can bi-amp. Assuming this includes an internal passive crossover board, it should allow you to listen to the mid woofer (plus its low-pass filter) or the tweeter (plus its high-pass filter) separately. This might address the question of whether a 2800 Hz crossover frequency suits these two drivers.



 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
@TLS Guy

The way I had envisioned using them was for stereo only and with the speakers placed vertically rather than horizontally. No "center" speaker would be in use, this would be stereo only.

I fully realize that speakers of this caliber are not ones that you would choose, but would you say such an arrangement would be inferior to the Infinity IL10 speakers that I currently have?
You certainly would not want to use them vertically. The whole point of making a three way center is to get a much better lobing pattern in the speech discrimination band. Placing them vertically will undo all that. If you were going to use them, they would have to be horizontal.

The other issue is that the mid is operating with far too narrow a pass band. You really have to have worked on speakers to see why this is a problem. Basically you get a very peaked band pass gain response. There is no way if disguising that, even if the model looks reasonable. It makes for shouty rough sounding speakers. A three way is only worth the trouble if the mid has a wide range response.

I once heard a wag say that in general mid range drivers have more in common with 1950s TV speakers then any other audio device. He was about right. To be honest, I think an awful lot of them are worse than those TV speakers.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
@TLS Guy

It sounds like it would not be a worthwhile endeavor. Thank you.

Assuming this includes an internal passive crossover board, it should allow you to listen to the mid woofer (plus its low-pass filter) or the tweeter (plus its high-pass filter) separately. This might address the question of whether a 2800 Hz crossover frequency suits these two drivers.
Can you explain this in more depth? I'm not too knowledgeable on speaker crossovers.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Can you explain this in more depth? I'm not too knowledgeable on speaker crossovers.
Remove the links between the pairs of binding posts. Plug into the lower set of posts and you can listen to the woofer without the tweeter. If the woofer is going into breakup, you will be able to hear some harshness in it's highest range. Try some music with prominent brass, like trumpets. Is there any ugly sounding glare? If so, the crossover frequency (2800 Hz?) is too high for that woofer.

Then do the same with the upper set of posts to hear the tweeter without the woofer. Listen for distortion in the lowest range for the tweeter. Its harder for me to describe the sound of a distorting tweeter, but if it sounds clean, its OK.

Remember to put the links back when you're done playing with this.
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Just curious at this point, but do some 3-way speakers allow for tri-amping?
I've never seen it, but I haven't spent much time looking at 3-ways.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Just curious at this point, but do some 3-way speakers allow for tri-amping?
I've never seen it, but I haven't spent much time looking at 3-ways.
I've never noticed it as a feature, but like you, I haven't looked for it. It probably does exist in some speaker.

I have seen 3-way speakers with two sets of binding posts that allow the woofers to be driven by a separate amp.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
The existence of two pairs of binding posts on the IL10 speakers indicates to me that Infinity marketed these speakers as "premium" models rather than bottom-of-the-line speakers.

That indirectly suggests that the overall sound quality of these speakers might be good.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
The existence of two pairs of binding posts on the IL10 speakers indicates to me that Infinity marketed these speakers as "premium" models rather than bottom-of-the-line speakers.

That indirectly suggests that the overall sound quality of these speakers might be good.
Unlike this setup I came across on Amazon? I think it is called the high-power-stealth bypass connection as it allows the power from the amp to flow quite freely whilst the speakers make nary a peep! :eek:


Okay, it is probably an illusion!
http://www.amazon.com/Fluance-SX6-Definition-Bookshelf-Loudspeakers/dp/B00067OS0A
 
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