Most bang for buck upgrade - Yamaha RX-V3800 to an Outlaw 5000?

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crossedover

Audioholic Chief
I inquired about the Slims, but Dennis stated he doesn't have any in Florida. I can't let myself buy speakers without hearing them first. I've asked Dennis if he offers any kind of 30-day in-home trial. Waiting on response.

Visiting a loc al high-end audio store, Audio Center, I listened to the Golden Ear Triton 1 and wasn’t impressed at all. Then I listened to Magnepan 1.7 and was very impressed. The speakers seemed to disappear! I figured both by the sound and look, they were completely out of my league. I'd asked him the price, but he wouldn't tell me until I listened to them. I knew no matter how great they sounded, I was not going to spend what I assumed would be an amount far beyond my budget. After hearing them, all that surprised me more than the great sound was the price. $2,100/pair.

As was mentioned above, don't find speakers and then see what problem they solve, and to that end, my current speakers don't seem to have any real sound stage. My dream is to have sound that seems like the musicians are in the room as opposed to musicians that sound like they are coming from a pin-pointable speaker. Make the music come alive and relay all of the detail that's on the source. On a budget?? We'll see.

My room is heavily treated with GIK absorption panels and carpeting on the floor. I prefer a mostly dead room so I only hear the recording, not the room. Dimensions are 17' wide by 14' deep (speakers on the 17" wide wall - with the windows, it had to be this way). Ceiling are 9'.
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Next Saturday I'm going back to Audio Center and bringing my RBH speakers with me so I can hear an a/b comparison. It's tough to make a true comparison otherwise, having my speakers in a totally different environment and amp compared to what was at the dealer. This way, I'll be able to hear exactly how much of a difference there is.

I stopped at one other place on the way back and was completely blown away by an incredible sounding system. Unfortunately, when I asked what I was listening to, it was a $5k per speaker Martin Logan connected to an also expensive tube amplifier. I listened to some other speakers in that store, but after hearing the ML's on a tube, everything else sounded like a box.

Current speakers: https://rbhsound.com/mc6ct.php

At some point I may get the Outlaw 5000 and bring it into his store to see how much difference there is between that and $2,000 Rotel that he referred to.
The journey continues
(just a note) I understand about the listening before buying and from my experience is that when people buy a Dennis Murphy designed speaker they love them, and most cases its trading up to something else he has done when the itch comes again. If you look at his graphs on the website you can see the excellent on and off axis responses.

Also since you are bringing your speakers as comparison, just remember they wont be level matched (unless you do it ) so dont perceive loudness as better.
 
C

Cage22

Enthusiast
Thank you Crossedover Level match - understood. Yeah, I know what you mean, louder is perceived as better. Where are the "graphs on the website" you refer to? I don't want to buy unheard, but I'm open minded - whatever sounds best. Dennis replied stating that I could try them for two weeks, but would be responsible for return shipping. He also stated, "The Slims are kind of an alternative to the Maggies--they're easier to place in a room and have deeper bass reach. But the Maggies will throw a deeper sound stage if you can set them up properly."

I'd really like to hear these Slims. I think I need to find out what the shipping cost would be.
 
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crossedover

Audioholic Chief
Thank you Crossedover Level match - understood. Yeah, I know what you mean, louder is perceived as better. Where are the "graphs on the website" you refer to? I don't want to buy unheard, but I'm open minded - whatever sounds best. Dennis replied stating that I could try them for two weeks, but would be responsible for return shipping. He also stated, "The Slims are kind of an alternative to the Maggies--they're easier to place in a room and have deeper bass reach. But the Maggies will throw a deeper sound stage if you can set them up properly."

I'd really like to hear these Slims. I think I need to find out what the shipping cost would be.
On Axis


85 deg off axis




Cabinet Custom Cabinet
Tweeter RAAL 64-10 OEM
Midrange Tang Band Titanium W4-1337SD
Woofer Seas L16NX 6"
Frequency Response 35Hz - 20kHz (+/- 2db) Anechoic
Sensitivity 85 dB (dB/2.83v/1M)
Box Alignment Folded Mass Loaded Transmission Line
Dimensions 41" H x 8" W x 13.25" D
Weight 55 lbs each


All of his speakers are voiced similar and his FR is flat which makes an eq easier if needed or wanted. Moving down to his BMR Monitor gives room to considers a sub upgrade based on savings, all though the specs on it are sick for a monitor sized speaker. Id imagine overall spl is close

Cabinet Cherry, maple, piano black, or custom veneers by Jim Salk
Tweeter RAAL 64-10 OEM
Midrange Tectonic Balanced Mode Radiator 2.5"
Woofer Scan Speak 8545-01 7"
Frequency Response 30 Hz - 20kHz (+ / - 2db) Anechoic
Sensitivity 84.5 dB (dB/2.83v/1M)
Box Alignment Bass Reflex
Dimensions 22" H x 9" W x 13.5" D
Weight 38 lbs each
Impedance 6 Ohms
 
Last edited:
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crossedover

Audioholic Chief
On Axis


85 deg off axis




Cabinet Custom Cabinet
Tweeter RAAL 64-10 OEM
Midrange Tang Band Titanium W4-1337SD
Woofer Seas L16NX 6"
Frequency Response 35Hz - 20kHz (+/- 2db) Anechoic
Sensitivity 85 dB (dB/2.83v/1M)
Box Alignment Folded Mass Loaded Transmission Line
Dimensions 41" H x 8" W x 13.25" D
Weight 55 lbs each


All of his speakers are voiced similar and his FR is flat which makes and eq easier if needed or wanted. Moving down to his BMR Monitor gives room to considers a sub upgrade based on savings, all though the specs on it are sick for a monitor sized speaker. Id imagine overall spl is close

Cabinet Cherry, maple, piano black, or custom veneers by Jim Salk
Tweeter RAAL 64-10 OEM
Midrange Tectonic Balanced Mode Radiator 2.5"
Woofer Scan Speak 8545-01 7"
Frequency Response 30 Hz - 20kHz (+ / - 2db) Anechoic
Sensitivity 84.5 dB (dB/2.83v/1M)
Box Alignment Bass Reflex
Dimensions 22" H x 9" W x 13.5" D
Weight 38 lbs each
Impedance 6 Ohms

Where are you in florida?
 
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crossedover

Audioholic Chief
Boynton Beach (east coast - southern)
There are some of his salk designs around central and south florida if your interested and the owners can accommodate. If member Jerry Love hung onto his Phil 2s he would probably do a demo
 
C

Cage22

Enthusiast
The journey so far...

I took the day off today for road trip to visit some audio dealers. The first one, a PSB dealer. When I arrived there was a big PSB sign on the outside of the building, along with signs and logos for other brands they carry. When I went in, I saw cardboard boxes from PSB, but he said they were no longer carrying the brand. He said they were good speakers, but they just didn’t sell. So I asked him what he had in a $2k - $5k range that would produce real good clarity and soundstage. He had me listen to 3 different pairs of B&W. Didn’t seem that detailed at all. Then, he said he wanted me to listen to another brand. He brought in some bookshelf speakers (though I clearly stated I wanted towers) for me to listen to. To my surprise, they were McIntosh. I didn’t even know they made speakers. And, I figured anything with their name on it would be way beyond my budget. But, these were quite affordable. And – they sounded great. I heard detail that I wasn’t hearing from other speakers. Each instrument was clearly discernable. On other speakers I’ve been listening to, it’s all just a jumbled muddle of sound – full range, but still all jumbled together. Good luck picking out specific instruments and feeling like you could hear the artist playing the instrument. Unfortunately, they were bookshelf speakers and the low mids weren’t there as much as I’d like. The frequency’s I’m talking about were too high for a sub. I asked about the next model up from McIntosh, which were towers. $5k. But unfortunately, that was the price per speaker.

On to the next dealer. He had a nice show room, but he had as much enthusiasm as someone would have towards moving piles of dirt. He played some Focals and Paradigm, but it just wasn’t want I was looking for. I asked him if he had anything else. He said, “no, that’s it.” and walked away. Not sure how he stays in business.

The last dealer I went to, also carried Paradigm and B&W, but didn’t have any Paradigms in stock or on display. He said his rep is local and he’s going to see if he can get something in for me to listen to.

I’ve learned some things in this venture. I honestly didn’t realize that the space behind the speaker had anything much to do with the soundstage. The speakers are at the front of the cabinet and so, except for bass management, I thought it was all about the room and opposing surfaces. I’ve since moved my RBH MC-6CT speakers out a bit, and it’s made a big difference. I’ve also got them closer to facing straight as opposed to toed in. Again, a big difference. I’ve also learned, it’d probably be best to call each dealer and see if they have the speakers that I’m interested in on display.

I’m starting to see where at least for me, buying direct via Internet (or phone) with places that offer free shipping (both ways preferably) and a trial period, may be the best way to go. I heard the Magnepan 1.7’s last Saturday, but found a certain sound annoying, which I think was room reflections. Again, another reason to buy direct from manufacturers, especially those that offer free in-home trials with return shipping covered - I can hear the speakers in my home where I know the room sound, which is mostly dead due to a lot of GIK panels.

I’m going to call RBH to see what’s in my price point, and then call the local dealers to see if they actually have them on display.

For Internet/direct, I may try Salk SongTower SC, “On lower priced models with a standard finish, we offer a 30-day in-home trial period. You can feel free to return the speakers within 30 days, in new condition, for a refund in the event they do not perform to your satisfaction.” End-user pays return shipping.

Axiom M100 free in-home trial, but again, the end user pays the return shipping.

PSB Imagine T2 – same thing.

Philharmonic Slims - $125 shipping each way. I might do this and consider it a $250 gamble.


Magnepan 1.7i – pay shipping both ways (and $100 if you don’t like them?!)


And, coincidentally, Audioholics just published, http://www.audioholics.com/how-to-shop/internet-direct-comparison.


I’m bringing my RBH speakers to the dealer that has the Magnepans on display this Saturday so I can get an idea of how mine compare and more so, since I know my speakers, find out how much the room is affecting what I’m hearing. And this time, I’ll bring my own CDs. Last time I didn’t thinking he’d have a good selection. Mistake – he had a selection of good stuff, just not my taste. Also, since they weren’t my CDs and I didn’t know the material, I wasn’t sure if the sound I was hearing was due to the room or what was on the CDs.

I'm curious, for anyone reading this, of the above mentioned speakers, which do you feel would most likely be the most revealing and detailed?

The journey continues…
 
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AJvR

Audiophyte
I would try to integrate Dirac Live room correction with the help of a miniDSP DDRC-88A. Room acoustics have major impact on the SQ and such a processor is a very flexible and effective solution.
 
C

Cage22

Enthusiast
AJvR - I do have an older system from XTZ. I'll need to re-analyze the room. But, it's loaded up pretty l with GIK absorbing panels.
 
C

Cage22

Enthusiast
Well I've narrowed it down to the Magnepan 1.7i vs. the Salk SongTower w/RT upgrade, and the Philharmonic Slims.

Curious to which is the most revealing.

Anyone out there ever compared any of these combinations?
 

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