Does more money buy you better performance with home audio gear?

[PENG]

I can absolutely see where one design team would say their so-and-so is "better", and maybe that's what the Marketing Dept is using. I can also see where the statement could be debated among designers. But at the end of the day, I suspect PENG is dead on that the difference is transparent to the user.

Thanks for understand my point, but my main point was more about what you may call "Corporate" design goal. If I were the department head of the D&M design team, I would make sure the goal include (obvious cost effectiveness is top) sound quality that is bench marked on "High Fidelity", not to do something intentionally to deviate from fidelity in order to create a Denon sound or Marantz sound. Published bench test data seem to show that they do have their goal right.

Further, the notion that there are things affecting sound quality yet not measurable and/or identifiable is logically flawed because if that is true, how do Marantz know what to design for? And if they somehow found a secret way to do it, being that this is a matured consumer audio technology, people like Dr. Rich would have identified the secret by going through the service manual with a fine tooth comb, and others might have taken their AVR apart to do reverse engineering (any patents would likely have expired by now).

With the advance of the latest highly precise instrument, it is not that difficult to compare music signal going in to the signal coming out of an amplifier. I do realize that the debate on this sound signature (intentional or not) topic is not unlike the so called all "well designed" amps sound the same (when operated within their design limits) argument and that means there will never be consensus among people who frequent AV forums. My view is that the real secret to the belief is the combination of Placebo effects, better components, more money, and myths from the past perpetuated via hearsay. Such things do affect us humans whether we want to admit it or not. My wife can never understand why I have to have multiple amps, AVRs, DACs, media players when I already have a turntable. After my each acquisition, she would tell me they sounded no different whatsoever from what I already have.

Lastly, sorry about repeating things I posted before but I want to keep my main point in one post.

 

[herbu]

make sure the goal include (obvious cost effectiveness is top) sound quality that is bench marked on "High Fidelity", not to do something intentionally to deviate from fidelity in order to create a Denon sound or Marantz sound.

Agreed! I cannot imagine any reputable brand trying to design their own sound color.

I wasn't in Development, but we were in a lot of the same meetings. I'm taking a stab here, but I suppose there are multiple circuits and stages between Input and Output of an amp or AVR. Each stage is likely designed by a different person/team, and each stage has an opportunity to introduce some distortion.

It's possible to have different philosophies on the specs, ie. where and how much distortion or tolerance to allow each stage. I also suppose it's possible to end up with the same final output distortion, even though each got there a different way.

When I say "corporate specs", I mean specs for the final output. In my experience, "corporate" defined "what"... Development defined "how". Different design teams may get there in different ways, and Development engineers can debate which is better. But for the end user, it doesn't matter unless one design proves more reliable than the other.

 

[PENG]

That an old stereotype. Denon makes Marantz receivers and dollar for dollar the Denon cuter part is the higher end platform for each model. Ie a marantz SR7010 is about equivalent to a Denon 5200, not the 7200 flagship.

Gene, D&M's high end offering seems to be limited to integrated amps only, any idea why? Their reference series integrated amps must sound fantastic if more money does buy better sound.

580,000 Yen for the Denon PMASX1, 50W 8 ohms, 100W 4 ohms, 30.4 kg (66.9 lbs).
523,148 Yen for the Marantz PM11S3, 100W 8 ohms, 200W 4 ohms, 26.6 kg (58.6 lbs).

Surprisingly, Denon's new 2016 model PMASX11, 120W 8 ohms, 240W 4 ohms, only weighs 27.4 kg and the list price, at 380,000 Yen is not only 6.6 lbs lighter but also much more affordable than the 50/100W flag ship model. I wonder what the catch is.

http://www.denon.jp/jp/product/hificomponents/amplifiers/pmasx11

Here's a comparison of the two but it is in Japanese. I tried Google translate but that messed things up for some reason.

http://www.ippinkan.com/denon_pma-sx1.htm

 

[Bob B.]

I think price definately can make a differnce, but a cheap set up properly calibrated or tweaked can sound better than expensive gear set up and not calibrated or not adjusted properly. Of course real good equipment costs more and can outperform less expensive gear but it is complicated and has to be used to its full potential. I would say if you are inexpierienced then hire a pro in your area to help you. If not then spend what you can afford and enjoy. The room has the final say. There is a bunch of free open ended software on the internet that you can use with a calibrated microphone to perform measurements and make adjustments to improve the physics limitations the room gives us all. There is alot of information on the internet about acoustics so we can get a better sound with some work. Fine gear, room measurements and adjustments, and room treatments, multiple subs and you will be very happy indeed. We now have laser vibrometers that alot of manufacturers are taking advantage of to design better drivers without cone breakup even at 50000hz. They can eliminate cabinet resonances, and now we have excellent class D amps that are digital with extremely non existant distortion independent of variable impedance, no phase anomalies and frequency stability. Digital crossovers using DSP to control all the past problems like phase coherence. Check out Acuton and Hypex, and read about Balanced Mode Drivers. We are heading for a new purer world of Digital. Directly downloading super high quality lossless files right over the internet for music and movies. Everything is getting close to perfect but the room acoustics is still the achilles heal. Audyssey room correction and the hand full of others help but they are still not perfect. I wish the magazines and websites would get more heavily into taming the room we have our equipment in with reviews on software and overall satisfactory solutions that they can achieve.

I am currently using 5 ADS L1290/2s not biamped yet but working towards it to improve the transients and damping by direct coupling the amp and drivers. I have an HSU subwoofer VTF3 MK4 that can reproduce 16hz with authority. I built the centerchannel speaker copying the model on Rich So's website using all original rebuilt drivers and crossover. I have an Oppo BDP-93 multi disc player and I am streaming VUDU for my movies. I have fios for my ISP with a bandwith of 25 up and 25 down. I have a Samsung Plasma 3D display that I had calibrated by Jim Doolittle from the ISF. Going to add 4 new ADS L300e s to my ceiling and one more subwoofer. I am looking to buy a new DTS X and Dolby Atmos processor with a 9 channel amp. Was hoping to get a Bryston setup but not so wealthy. Sorry for such a long post but reading about electronics gets me overly excited. Enjoy the holidays.

 

[Philip Grundner]

Actually, the amp power difference is negligible but in terms of future proofing the 6010 is closer to the 7010. It has Audyssey XT32 Sub EQ HT, 9.2 channel processing, 13.2 preouts $500 more (list price) is a lot but if you need those two features and want to stick with Marantz then it is worth it.

The SR6010 only does 7.2 channel processing, not 9.2. It does, however have all the additional Audyssey features that PENG mentioned.

 

[PENG]

The SR6010 only does 7.2 channel processing, not 9.2. It does, however have all the additional Audyssey features that PENG mentioned.

What is your source? According to the Marantz product information sheet, it has 9.2 channel processing capability. It has only 7.2 (or 7.1 if the .2 is not discrete?) channels of power amp, so you do have to add a 2 channel power amp, but again the preamp and processor can handle 9.2, or strictly speaking probably just 9.1 because the two subwoofer channel will likely not discrete, but that would be the same for the 7010.

http://www.us.marantz.com/us/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=AVReceivers&SubCatId=0&ProductId=SR6010

http://www.us.marantz.com/DocumentMaster/US/SR6010_v3.pdf