Most bang for buck upgrade - Yamaha RX-V3800 to an Outlaw 5000?

[Cage22]

What step gets the most bang for the buck to get significantly better sound quality? Will going from a Yamaha RX-V3800 to an Outlaw 5000 (keeping the RX as a pre/pro) make a significant difference?

Reasons to upgrade to separates:
In Paul Scarpelli's Nov 06, 2015 article, "What Makes the Biggest Audible Differences in Home Theater?" he states, "My opinion of receivers is you should only use one until you pay off your student loan. I have heard few that rival even modest separates. Because of this comment, I expect to be rudely pummeled in this thread in the Audioholics forum. There are exceptions, though, most notably the behemoth flagship receivers from Denon and Yamaha."

Reasons NOT to upgrade to separates:
However, in reviewing this forum, I've seen a few threads where contrary to the above some have said, going from some specific high-end integrated receivers to say, something like the Outlaw 5000 amplifier, would make no or very little discernable difference. I don't use any of the EQ or effects. I like clean and pure. I'm considering purchasing either an Emotiva amp or the Outlaw 5000, but don't want to waste my money on something will make little difference in sound quality. My dream is to some day have a system where you can't tell where the sound is coming from, as if the performers are in the room with you and the speakers become invisible.

Current situation:
The room is 14' x 17', carpeted with 9' ceilings. I've got RBH MC-6CT speakers and the MC616 center with JBL 4410 surrounds and a Velodyne sub in an heavily acoustically treated room. But, I've got a Yamaha RX-V3800 and I've wanted to get 5 channel separates for a long time, thinking they'd make a big difference, but didn't know what to get. Every time I research, I find an overwhelming amount of options. I figured on spending between $1k - $3k with a little flexibility to go higher if warranted. I don't care what the equipment looks like. I just want the purest sound possible. I don't use EQ or DSP room simulations (hall, anthem, etc.).

Many years have gone by and I still don't know what to get. I've thought of Emotiva. But the perfect situation would be a store that I could go to and do an A/B comparison of a bunch of amplifiers and buy the one that simply sounds the most transparent and makes me feel like the performers are live in the room with me. Fortunately, I now live in south east Florida (Boynton Beach). But even after being here for almost 4 years, I'm still lost as to finding a place that lets you hear a bunch of equipment (within my budget).

In conclusion, for my budget, is the Outlaw or anything else sonically worth the upgrade? Or, would I be better off upgrading the front main (or front 3 speakers)?

I'd greatly appreciate any specific answers.

 

[KEW]

My dream is to some day have a system where you can't tell where the sound is coming from, as if the performers are in the room with you and the speakers become invisible.

Your receiver is no slouch.
Hopefully Gene will respond with his knowledge of RBH and Yamaha, but I would say that you have much more to be gained by upgrading your speakers than your AVR.
RBH makes great speakers, and I have enough respect for them to believe yours are good speakers for what they cost, but there is a lot of room for improvement of your speakers and that will impact the overall sound more than upgrading your electronics at this point!
Also consider room treatments.

I would work at getting what you want out of the two main speakers (plus subs as appropriate) playing stereo music. Then, once you feel good about it, expand to the surrounds and center.

 

[fmw]

Frankly there is no logical reason to think the electronics will affect the sound quality meaningfully. If you want to improve sound quality the path is speakers and room acoustics.

 

[KEW]

I'd greatly appreciate any specific answers.

It looks like West Palm Beach has three RBH dealers if you want to stick with them, I have never viewed RBH as a source of value (at MSRP), but if you can get a decent discount, they are good sounding speakers. In a tower, I believe you should be looking at the SX-6300R as a starting pointing, for the quality you are after, but defer to Gene or ADTG if they say otherwise.

http://rbhsound.com/dealer_locator/index.php

Since you mention budget, I think Philharmonic Audio offers the best performance for the dollar ... short of DIY (and that is debatable). Spend some time researching Dennis Murphy and the Philharmonic Slim speakers on-line.
http://philharmonicaudio.com/slims.html
They will sound much like the RBH in the sense that they are accurate, realistic sounding speakers.

Once you pick your speakers, you should post here to see if your receiver is up to the task of driving them. There are speakers that put demands on amps beyond what your AVR can do. However, they are rare.

Speaker first then worry about matching the amp. But you want to do this with the speaker you really want first or you can waste money with no benefit.

 

[Seth=L]

I'm going to offer a different opinion. I think more power would help, but not as often as you would think.

You would have to be cranking the volume pretty hard to get an appreciable benefit from adding a power amplifier such as the Outlaw. I seldom (lately never) push anything to that level.

Comparatively I would expect the Outlaw to have a distinct advantage, but only at the highest levels of output and during the most action filled scenes or musical passages.

 

[Cage22]

FMW, KEW, Seth=L, THANK YOU! I wish I'd taken the time to post this question years ago. Your answers were great - they saved me from just about wasting a lot of money and gaining mostly "buyers remorse." I've got GIK products covering a lot of the room for acoustic treatment, and carpeting on the floor (a rare thing in Florida). I'm not concerned with loudness so much, so I think I'll take all your advice and start looking at speakers. Somehow, I had the impression that a new amp of quality would make these speakers sound very different, but I guess I have better amplification than I realized, and the speakers seem to be the shortcoming. I don't care about staying with RBH, I just want whatever sounds purest and makes the performers sound like they are in my room with a nice sound stage, to the end that my budget will allow.

KEW - I never heard of Philharmonic Audio, but I'll give them a listen. I don't care what speakers look like. All that matters is sound. Seth=L, thank you I'll at least keep the Outlaw in mind if whatever new speakers I get require more power. I don't listen at those levels, except for the occasion's where a film brings the dynamic range to that level, with the typical dialog at reasonable levels.

Thank you all so much,

Most Sincerely,
Rob

and yes, I'll definitely keep you posted. Boy do I wish I had posted this years ago.

 

[KEW]

Philharmonic Audio is not going to be in your local audio shop.
Spend some time researching Dennis Murphy (on this and other forums as well as straight Google) and the Philharmonic speakers on-line.
Call Dennis Murphy at the link and talk to him a bit about what you are looking for and what you don't feel is right with your current speakers.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Philharmonic Audio is not going to be in your local audio shop.
Spend some time researching Dennis Murphy (on this and other forums as well as straight Google) and the Philharmonic speakers on-line.
Call Dennis Murphy at the link and talk to him a bit about what you are looking for and what you don't feel is right with your current speakers.

Kurt, is it correct to say that Salk's SS8 were designed by Dennis? Because SS8 were THE BEST speakers I heard in my entire life regardless of price and it was in Florida at AH GTG 2012

 

[KEW]

Kurt, is it correct to say that Salk's SS8 were designed by Dennis? Because SS8 were THE BEST speakers I heard in my entire life regardless of price and it was in Florida at AH GTG 2012

I don't know. I know Salk used him for most of his designs, but don't know which.

 

[PENG]

What step gets the most bang for the buck to get significantly better sound quality? Will going from a Yamaha RX-V3800 to an Outlaw 5000 (keeping the RX as a pre/pro) make a significant difference?

I highly doubt that, but Placebo may prove me wrong.

Reasons to upgrade to separates:
In Paul Scarpelli's Nov 06, 2015 article, "What Makes the Biggest Audible Differences in Home Theater?" he states, "My opinion of receivers is you should only use one until you pay off your student loan. I have heard few that rival even modest separates. Because of this comment, I expect to be rudely pummeled in this thread in the Audioholics forum. There are exceptions, though, most notably the behemoth flagship receivers from Denon and Yamaha."

I read that paragraph and that's probably the only paragraph in his article that I do not agree to, not entirely anyway. I have compared my very old Denon AVR with my separates that cost much more, and there is no significant difference in sound quality.

If you are comparing the RX-V3800's internal amp to that of the Outlaw 5000, in stereo I won't even give the Outlaw any edge. For multi channel application, depending on the program material, the Outlaw may have a slight edge in terms of power reserve.

 

[crossedover]

oh great fmw has infected these forums as well.

Thanks for your contribution

 

[TheWarrior]

Kurt, is it correct to say that Salk's SS8 were designed by Dennis? Because SS8 were THE BEST speakers I heard in my entire life regardless of price and it was in Florida at AH GTG 2012

Yes!

 

[KEW]

Yes!

Thanks for verifying, Alex.
I was pretty sure, but wasn't going to say without knowing.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Will going from a Yamaha RX-V3800 to an Outlaw 5000 (keeping the RX as a pre/pro) make a significant difference?

My answer is "NO".

But you could borrow an external amp and see for yourself.

Just keep in mind that you must volume level match when comparing since the LOUDER system will subjectively sound better.

As far as upgrading the front 3 speakers, I recommend that you compare any new speakers to your current RBH speakers first before spending $3K.

I think you could get a pair of RBH SX-6300/R Reference + SX-661C/R Reference for $3K or a pair of SX-6300 + SX-661C for $2300.

 

[TheWarrior]

Thanks for verifying, Alex.
I was pretty sure, but wasn't going to say without knowing.

As I understand it, the entire line was designed by Dennis. Guess that explains Salk pricing: once for Jim, once for carpenter, and again for Dennis. If only someone could combine the electrical, wood working, and business management...

 

[crossedover]

As I understand it, the entire line was designed by Dennis. Guess that explains Salk pricing: once for Jim, once for carpenter, and again for Dennis. If only someone could combine the electrical, wood working, and business management...

Almost the entire line and Jim is an excellent carpenter

 

[fmw]

FMW, KEW, Seth=L, THANK YOU! I wish I'd taken the time to post this question years ago. Your answers were great - they saved me from just about wasting a lot of money and gaining mostly "buyers remorse." I've got GIK products covering a lot of the room for acoustic treatment, and carpeting on the floor (a rare thing in Florida). I'm not concerned with loudness so much, so I think I'll take all your advice and start looking at speakers. Somehow, I had the impression that a new amp of quality would make these speakers sound very different, but I guess I have better amplification than I realized, and the speakers seem to be the shortcoming. I don't care about staying with RBH, I just want whatever sounds purest and makes the performers sound like they are in my room with a nice sound stage, to the end that my budget will allow.

You say your speakers are a shortcoming. Assuming you have a clear idea of what those shortcomings are, the process is to listen to other speakers to find some that do the job or at least help clarify what bothers you about the speakers you have. Find a solution to a problem rather than buy a solution that is searching for a problem.

As to room acoustics, that is a very complex issue. It is far more complicated than placing absorbers at the first reflection points. As an example, in my experience long rooms sound better than squarish rooms particularly if there is ample space behind the listening position. Not much you can do about room dimensions. My home theater room (family room) is about the size and shape of a two car garage. Not ideal. But it is large enough that I can provide a pretty good space behind the listening position to collect reflections. My room is lively but fairly controlled as a result. There are books written on architectural acoustics. I don't have the knowledge to write one here.

 

[TheWarrior]

Almost the entire line and Jim is an excellent carpenter

I am mistaken! Glad to hear he is truly hands on!

 

[Seth=L]

Seth=L, thank you I'll at least keep the Outlaw in mind if whatever new speakers I get require more power. I don't listen at those levels, except for the occasion's where a film brings the dynamic range to that level, with the typical dialog at reasonable levels.

Same, that's why I have a 50 watt per channel receiver instead of a 100-200 watt per channel amplifier.

 

[Cage22]

I inquired about the Slims, but Dennis stated he doesn't have any in Florida. I can't let myself buy speakers without hearing them first. I've asked Dennis if he offers any kind of 30-day in-home trial. Waiting on response.

Visiting a loc al high-end audio store, Audio Center, I listened to the Golden Ear Triton 1 and wasn’t impressed at all. Then I listened to Magnepan 1.7 and was very impressed. The speakers seemed to disappear! I figured both by the sound and look, they were completely out of my league. I'd asked him the price, but he wouldn't tell me until I listened to them. I knew no matter how great they sounded, I was not going to spend what I assumed would be an amount far beyond my budget. After hearing them, all that surprised me more than the great sound was the price. $2,100/pair.

As was mentioned above, don't find speakers and then see what problem they solve, and to that end, my current speakers don't seem to have any real sound stage. My dream is to have sound that seems like the musicians are in the room as opposed to musicians that sound like they are coming from a pin-pointable speaker. Make the music come alive and relay all of the detail that's on the source. On a budget?? We'll see.

My room is heavily treated with GIK absorption panels and carpeting on the floor. I prefer a mostly dead room so I only hear the recording, not the room. Dimensions are 17' wide by 14' deep (speakers on the 17" wide wall - with the windows, it had to be this way). Ceiling are 9'.

Next Saturday I'm going back to Audio Center and bringing my RBH speakers with me so I can hear an a/b comparison. It's tough to make a true comparison otherwise, having my speakers in a totally different environment and amp compared to what was at the dealer. This way, I'll be able to hear exactly how much of a difference there is.

I stopped at one other place on the way back and was completely blown away by an incredible sounding system. Unfortunately, when I asked what I was listening to, it was a $5k per speaker Martin Logan connected to an also expensive tube amplifier. I listened to some other speakers in that store, but after hearing the ML's on a tube, everything else sounded like a box.

Current speakers: https://rbhsound.com/mc6ct.php

At some point I may get the Outlaw 5000 and bring it into his store to see how much difference there is between that and $2,000 Rotel that he referred to.
The journey continues