messy at loud volumes

[highfigh]

Agree with most of the others: you need a sub or three and off-load the deep bass from your revels. This should clean things up slightly and allow a bit more dynamic range before the revels run out of steam.

That's a huge room, and the revels will only go so loud before you run into thermal compression, drivers reaching maximum excursion, or whatever else happens when you try to get speakers to go louder than they inherently can. Off loading the deep bass will definitely help, but if you want concert/club type ear splitting volumes, you likely need speakers capable of higher output.

When you listen at more moderate volumes, you probably hear more direct sound and less of your local acoustics. When you crank it, you'll hear more of the room's influence, which may be compounding the issue and contributing to the less than stellar results when cranked.

It's not a matter of needing more power, the low frequencies are lingering and affecting the direct sound. He wrote "When no one is home(rare) i like to enjoy music at spirited levels (70db +)" and if he's running into thermal compression at 70dB or just higher, something else is wrong. 70dB is not loud from 12'-15', especially in a live room and even if the speakers produce 84dB@1W/1m, the SPL at 15' will be over 80dB. Think about the sound in a large space like a convention center or church/cathedral- it can reverberate for seconds and that's the reason church music is slow, without percussion.

The room needs treatment- something to break up the low frequencies will help but also, the size and shape of the room are working against the sound quality. Your last paragraph is dead on.

 

[Sams]

Is the bass sounding muddied and/or compressed?

Any harshness in the midrange and/or highs?

What kind of content (what movie or music) are you playing? Does it have really deep bass content?

While playing that content that sounds bad, do the following:

On your Denon, go into the menus and set the speakers to "small." Then go to the crossover menus and raise the crossover setting.

Start with 40Hz? Is the sound still bad? You've just removed the deepest bass from going to the speakers.
Go to 60Hz. Still bad? You've removed most of the low bass.
Go to 80Hz. Still bad? You've removed most of the low bass and some midbass.
Go to 100Hz. You'll be losing quite a bit of bass now, but is it cleaner sounding?
Go to 120Hz. Now you'll really start to lose bass output, but it should be sounding cleaner.
Go to 150Hz. Now you'll have very little bass, but it should sound really clean.

If that fixes it, you either need subwoofers or a more powerful amp, or a smaller room.

Will try this asap, hopefully today

 

[Sams]

I think highfigh's post#15 is right on. How's the basement finished, is it covered with rug, some sort of hard wood floor, vinyl floor, dry wall etc?

Those speakers are not particularly hard to drive. Stereophile will always recommend a power amp if you see any impedance dip below 4 ohms and some higher than average phase angles. If you sit only 10 to 12 feet from the speakers, even the 4520 alone should do fine.

Regardless, I would say you definitely need a couple of subwoofers if you enjoy listening really loud.

One more thing, if the 4520 is a refurbished or used one, you should do a processor rest right away. Then run Audyssey, then listening to Audyssey, and pure direct to find out which one you prefer. If you listen with volume set to below say 75, or -10 (just roughly, and depend of which scale), you should engage DEQ. Also, turn off Dynamic volume and LFC.

The basement is carpeted, the walls are bare for the most part. The denon was offered new when I bought it @ ac4less. I'm hoping to test the system again today and move the speakers away from the corners and closer together.

 

[PENG]

If my post is "right on", why did you give me a dislike?

Oops I did it again, I wish they separate the two choices with some space. Fixed now, thanks for letting me know, and my apology..

 

[TLS Guy]

I would make a few comments.

Your room is a barn of place and does need treatment.

Next I think your speakers are a good deal of the problem without a good sub.

This speakers drop below four ohms in the power range and on the same region have a very adverse phase angle, so the actual impedance and power demand is higher than you think. I would bet heavily you are clipping the receiver.

The next issue, is that because the speakers are fairly sensitive, they do not go very deep. The F3 is 52 Hz and quite a few bookshelves can manage that.

The big point of the latter is in a ported box below F3 the drivers decouple form the box tuning rapidly. This means that if you have a lot of deep bass content you will have excessive and wasted excursion of the woofers. This will really muddy things.

So a sub will cure this latter point crossed over at 60 to Hz. Do not cross higher than that as the crossover point will be too close to the woofer mid crossover point.

This brings me to my last point. It is a three way. The cross to the mid range driver is 575 Hz. By far from the lowest crossover point around, but that mid mid range driver will still be handling close to half the power. This is the problem with mid range drivers, they are small and have to handle a lot of power. In addition there is not a lot of cone excursion to cool the voice coil. The result is that the voice coil heats and the resistance goes up. This results in reduced output from the mid range as the volume is increased. This is called dynamic thermal compression. This is common in these types of designs at power. I would bet that this problem is a good deal of your muddiness issue at power.

For high power application in three way speakers it really does require two mid range drivers and well designed ones at that. There are very few mid range drivers that can handle lots of power without this problem and all very costly.

High spl. speakers for large spaces are formidable affairs, and significantly above the cost of those speakers.

I would be careful and be a bit more circumspect about the power you want to demand from those speakers, other wise I see blown mid range drivers and or a blown receiver in your future.

 

[ski2xblack]

He wrote "When no one is home(rare) i like to enjoy music at spirited levels (70db +)" and if he's running into thermal compression at 70dB or just higher, something else is wrong. 70dB is not loud from 12'-15', especially in a live room and even if the speakers produce 84dB@1W/1m, the SPL at 15' will be over 80dB.

I'm curious about that 70db+ figure too. If it's just the volume setting on an uncalibrated AVR it's meaningless. It certainly doesn't seem to be "spirited levels" nor outside the capacity of his revels. Given that, I was assuming "spirited levels" equates to much higher actual spl. Maybe the OP will clarify this.

 

[highfigh]

Oops I did it again,

Thanks, Brittney

 

[PENG]

I'm curious about that 70db+ figure too. If it's just the volume setting on an uncalibrated AVR it's meaningless. It certainly doesn't seem to be "spirited levels" nor outside the capacity of his revels. Given that, I was assuming "spirited levels" equates to much higher actual spl. Maybe the OP will clarify this.

As I was reading TLS's I was thinking about that 70+ thing too. The max for the 4520 is 98 in the 0-98 scale, so 70+ is not a big deal if the auto Audyssey run was done properly and the trim levels were not far from 0. Now under such assumptions, I would say TLS's heavy bet on the receiver clipping would not be a sure bet. As for the requirement of subs to help the F12s, I think we are probably all in agreement. The bass capability of those F12's don't seem to be that great for floor standers with twin 8" drivers.

 

[Sams]

I would make a few comments.

Your room is a barn of place and does need treatment.

Next I think your speakers are a good deal of the problem without a good sub.

This speakers drop below four ohms in the power range and on the same region have a very adverse phase angle, so the actual impedance and power demand is higher than you think. I would bet heavily you are clipping the receiver.

The next issue, is that because the speakers are fairly sensitive, they do not go very deep. The F3 is 52 Hz and quite a few bookshelves can manage that.

The big point of the latter is in a ported box below F3 the drivers decouple form the box tuning rapidly. This means that if you have a lot of deep bass content you will have excessive and wasted excursion of the woofers. This will really muddy things.

So a sub will cure this latter point crossed over at 60 to Hz. Do not cross higher than that as the crossover point will be too close to the woofer mid crossover point.

This brings me to my last point. It is a three way. The cross to the mid range driver is 575 Hz. By far from the lowest crossover point around, but that mid mid range driver will still be handling close to half the power. This is the problem with mid range drivers, they are small and have to handle a lot of power. In addition there is not a lot of cone excursion to cool the voice coil. The result is that the voice coil heats and the resistance goes up. This results in reduced output from the mid range as the volume is increased. This is called dynamic thermal compression. This is common in these types of designs at power. I would bet that this problem is a good deal of your muddiness issue at power.

For high power application in three way speakers it really does require two mid range drivers and well designed ones at that. There are very few mid range drivers that can handle lots of power without this problem and all very costly.

High spl. speakers for large spaces are formidable affairs, and significantly above the cost of those speakers.

I would be careful and be a bit more circumspect about the power you want to demand from those speakers, other wise I see blown mid range drivers and or a blown receiver in your future.

Thanks tls, so are we thinking that even if the amp was not clipping and was suitable or I "cheated" and picked up one the new crown Xls drivecores-the f12s would still frustrate me at loud volumes because their limited frequency response and limited output? It sounds like I should have gone with the Jbl studio 590s I was also looking at? Do you have an idea why the f12s were designed for only 52 hz, like you said, similar to the frequency response of a bookshelf speaker?

Edit: clarity

 

[Sams]

I'm curious about that 70db+ figure too. If it's just the volume setting on an uncalibrated AVR it's meaningless. It certainly doesn't seem to be "spirited levels" nor outside the capacity of his revels. Given that, I was assuming "spirited levels" equates to much higher actual spl. Maybe the OP will clarify this.

I have tried to clarify that with an update to my original post

 

[Sams]

As I was reading TLS's I was thinking about that 70+ thing too. The max for the 4520 is 98 in the 0-98 scale, so 70+ is not a big deal if the auto Audyssey run was done properly and the trim levels were not far from 0. Now under such assumptions, I would say TLS's heavy bet on the receiver clipping would not be a sure bet. As for the requirement of subs to help the F12s, I think we are probably all in agreement. The bass capability of those F12's don't seem to be that great for floor standers with twin 8" drivers.

I have tried to clarify that with an update to my original post. In regards to the bass capability, I'm starting to get the feeling the concerta sub was a required additional purchase.

 

[KEW]

I have tried to clarify that with an update to my original post. In regards to the bass capability, I'm starting to get the feeling the concerta sub was a required additional purchase.

Don't do it!
There are many other subs that are more capable for the money, and you have a large area to fill.
Honestly, I don't know that sub and it may be the rare exception, but as a rule you are best off buying subs from companies that specialize in subs. Most mainstream speakers companies offer subs to take advantage of people who are ready to buy a sub thinking it needs to match brands to work well together.

Look at Hsu, PSA, Rythmik, Reaction Audio. SVS are also a good option - especially if you want local pick-up (they recently got picked up by Best Buy's Magnolia Room division).

 

[Sams]

Don't do it!
There are many other subs that are more capable for the money, and you have a large area to fill.
Honestly, I don't know that sub and it may be the rare exception, but as a rule you are best off buying subs from companies that specialize in subs. Most mainstream speakers companies offer subs to take advantage of people who are ready to buy a sub thinking it needs to match brands to work well together.

Look at Hsu, PSA, Rythmik, Reaction Audio. SVS are also a good option - especially if you want local pick-up (they recently got picked up by Best Buy's Magnolia Room division).

Thanks kew I hear ya, I'm familiar with those, what I meant by that was-I'm thinking the f12s were not meant to be used on their own.

Random-the revel b1 has a weird frequency response like the f12. The -10db is lower on the f12(28hz). http://www.revelspeakers.com/productdetail/~/product/b1.html

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks tls, so are we thinking that even if the amp was not clipping and was suitable or I "cheated" and picked up one the new crown Xls drivecores-the f12s would still frustrate me at loud volumes because their limited frequency response and limited output? It sounds like I should have gone with the Jbl studio 590s I was also looking at? Do you have an idea why the f12s were designed for only 52 hz, like you said, similar to the frequency response of a bookshelf speaker?

Edit: clarity

There are fundamentals you have to understand about loudspeakers. Your speakers are quite sensitive. Now there is always an inverse relationship between sensitivity and bass extension.

Now whether a speaker will work well for you depends a lot on the type of music you listen to. For quite a bit of music there is not a lot below 52 Hz. For most classical music a response to around 30 to 35 Hz is fine.

The next issue is the average power the music requires. Pop music is inclined to be highly compressed, at least in digital formats. You can't do that with an LP or you have very short playing times! The point is that highly compressed pop music at highish and loud volumes causes a lot of heating in the driver voice coils. This plays havoc with the response. This is especially true of three ways, were as I said one small mid range driver can succumb to severe thermal dynamic compression. Classical music on the other hand has lots of low volume passages as a rule, allowing plenty of time for voice coils to cool.

In addition in your speakers, I see from the pictures the crossovers contain pretty small iron core chokes. These are prone to core saturation at high volume also compounding the problems you note. Small chokes like this also have thermal compression issues.

Now with many music sources in a smaller contained space your speakers almost certainly would sound quite pleasant as they measure pretty well and seem pretty good value for money.

Speakers that would fill a space like yours at high spl, are going to cost a lot more. Drivers with motors systems then can dissipate a lot of heat, and perform well at high spl are costly. In addition they would have more drivers, and certainly larger bass drivers. In addition the crossover would have much larger and more costly inductors.

Speakers are hard to choose, and music preference, volume levels and the space to be filled all have to come into consideration.

In your case that room is really working against you. Domestic speakers really work best in confined rooms with a dominant dimension of 20 to 25 feet or so and around 14 feet or so wide.

Large rooms that open to other spaces, because they have no doors get your back to the wall before you start.

A couple of good subs will help you, but not solve all your problems. With that space you will need some hefty subs, as you have to pressurize the whole space. The next issue, is that when you do pressurize the whole space like that in a house you end up pressurizing the whole house which can, and usually does, upset domestic harmony.

 

[PENG]

I have tried to clarify that with an update to my original post. In regards to the bass capability, I'm starting to get the feeling the concerta sub was a required additional purchase.

Sam, thanks for the updates but I would still like to know the level trim settings as well. On the 0-98 scale, 70 will be like -10 on the -79 to +18 scale. That is not a big deal for the 4520 but if say, the levels are set to +10, then even with volume at 70, it will be like 80 (or 0 in the -79.5 to +18 scale) and in that case the Denon will likely be clipping at times.

I suggest you do the following so we can have more information to determine if lack of power is the main culprit.

1) Find out what the level settings are.
2) Make sure Dyn EQ, Dyn Vol, LFC are all off.
3) Play a test tone or highly compressed pop music and set master volume on the AVR to 70.

Use a Radio Shack SPL meter to find out what the SPL (use C weighting) is at your listening position (you indicated 11 ft from the speakers if I understood correctly)

The thing is, if you run Audyssey by following the proper procedure, you are supposed to get film reference level, that is 85 dB with master volume at 0 (80 in your case) at your mic (listening) position. So if the trim levels are set to 0, near 0, and you are in fact getting 85 dB SPL with volume at 70 then I would say the 4520 is likely not clipping and you are one of those people who listen at very loud level. Still, if you have to listen with volume in the 70's, even if the levels are set close to 0, you should add a 300 WPC power amplifier to get you 4 dB of headroom. To resolve the sound quality issues that you seem to be facing, the bare concrete wall definitely does not help, unless by bare you mean dry wall, then it isn't too bad, but subwoofers and/or better speakers will obviously help.

 

[lsiberian]

I don't think a speaker change is warranted until you at least try it with a competent subwoofer.

 

[Sams]

Sam, thanks for the updates but I would still like to know the level trim settings as well. On the 0-98 scale, 70 will be like -10 on the -79 to +18 scale. That is not a big deal for the 4520 but if say, the levels are set to +10, then even with volume at 70, it will be like 80 (or 0 in the -79.5 to +18 scale) and in that case the Denon will likely be clipping at times.

I suggest you do the following so we can have more information to determine if lack of power is the main culprit.

1) Find out what the level settings are.
2) Make sure Dyn EQ, Dyn Vol, LFC are all off.
3) Play a test tone or highly compressed pop music and set master volume on the AVR to 70.

Use a Radio Shack SPL meter to find out what the SPL (use C weighting) is at your listening position (you indicated 11 ft from the speakers if I understood correctly)

The thing is, if you run Audyssey by following the proper procedure, you are supposed to get film reference level, that is 85 dB with master volume at 0 (80 in your case) at your mic (listening) position. So if the trim levels are set to 0, near 0, and you are in fact getting 85 dB SPL with volume at 70 then I would say the 4520 is likely not clipping and you are one of those people who listen at very loud level. Still, if you have to listen with volume in the 70's, even if the levels are set close to 0, you should add a 300 WPC power amplifier to get you 4 dB of headroom. To resolve the sound quality issues that you seem to be facing, the bare concrete wall definitely does not help, unless by bare you mean dry wall, then it isn't too bad, but subwoofers and/or better speakers will obviously help.

If you mean the source level setting, that's set to 0. And the reference level offset setting is 0 too because dynamic eq is off. Edit: drywall too

 

[ski2xblack]

Yeah, I second lsiberian. Don't second guess your speaker choice just yet, but you will probably need to adjust your expectations a bit. They may do just fine at moderately loud levels, particularly after you augment with some decent subwoofage (and not the concerto sub, you'll be better off by kicking it up a notch and going with the SVS, Hsu, PSA, RA, etc.), but they won't do REALLY LOUD, so get comfortable with that reality. It's not a bad thing. Our hearing is most sensitive at moderate spls. When you go into truly loud playback (if your rig can even do that), with average levels in the mid 90's or higher and peaks well into triple digit spls, our hearing becomes less linear, you get into threshold shifts and possible hearing damage. Plus, those Seatons and Danleys (speakers that can indeed get that loud without falling to pieces) cost a fortune.

 

[PENG]

If you mean the source level setting, that's set to 0. And the reference level offset setting is 0 too because dynamic eq is off. Edit: drywall too

I meant the speaker levels.

 

[Sams]

I meant the speaker levels.

My bad, 0 for right, -0.5 for left