Manufacturer Specifications and Interpretation

Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
First let me be perfectly honest with you. I'm not an Electrical Engineer. I'm not an expert on amplifier design or service. What I know I have learned mostly from here and some research elsewhere. Again, I'm not an expert and I don't expect my writing to be regarded as expert opinion let alone fact. Enjoy! :)

How many times do you see thread topics like this?

"Is this receiver powerful enough power for my speakers?"

or

"Can my speakers handle this much power?"

You've seen plenty and the responses are predictable. However, more often than not I see a lot of folks who use this logic.

"The only difference between 50 watts and 100 watts is 3 decibels".

While this is mathematically and electronically technically true it's a little too "black & white".

Many times we are not considering anything more than the manufacturer's suggested specifications. I say suggestion because as we are all aware, well most of us, that the manufacturer's published specifications are often done under entirely different conditions and don't universally apply to all products in the same way.

Without getting into specifics of particular makes and models I will draw a comparison between two products.

One product advertises 50 watts per channel and another advertises 80 watts per channel. Both have the same quantity of channels. The argument I usually see in regards to comparing such products is that the difference in power would be negligible because the wattage difference is less than double the output difference is less than 2dB and not readily noticeable. Now assuming that both products reach their specified ratings at exactly the same distortion levels and going beyond that produces the same level dynamic compression and/or failure then yes, the difference is negligible between these two products.

The problem with this argument is that we do not know how these two products will behave after they've exceeded their manufacturer specifications. Maybe one of the products shuts down or distorts so horribly that it's unbearable while the other continues to produce sound that doesn't have noticeably audible artifacts.

An often overlooked contributing factor is the power supply size. Often times a receiver will shut down because the power supply is being demanded to supply too much current or will suffer severe dynamic compression resulting in a flattening out of output. A receiver with a smaller power supply, but heavier duty output stages may appear to be more powerful on paper because of theoretical output capabilities of just one or two channels. Transistors can take more abuse than most people might think. The transistors have the ability to output instantaneous current far exceeding their specifications, and often times they do. When your power supply is out of juice, it's out.

Amplifiers are a sum of their parts, we all know this. Of course one part or a few can ultimately be your limiting factor. But judging these products from the exterior and with published specifications is no grounds to make concrete recommendations.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
Personally, I agree, I do not like this statment:


"The only difference between 50 watts and 100 watts is 3 decibels".

The more accurate and precise language would be
"The difference between 50W and 100W is DEFINED as 3dB"
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Personally, I agree, I do not like this statment:


"The only difference between 50 watts and 100 watts is 3 decibels".

The more accurate and precise language would be
"The difference between 50W and 100W is DEFINED as 3dB"
Usually it's "The difference between the Marantz NR1504 and the Marantz SR5010 is 3dB". :rolleyes:
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
"The only difference between 50 watts and 100 watts is 3 decibels".

While this is mathematically and electronically technically true it's a little too "black & white".
Agree, that's why in my responses to such questions I typically referred to bench tested outputs. For example, you can compare the bench test data obtained by the S&V magazine, or Audioholics. If both units are tested under the same or very similar conditions you can have a valid argument of the difference between 50W and 100W.

Many times we are not considering anything more than the manufacturer's suggested specifications. I say suggestion because as we are all aware, well most of us, that the manufacturer's published specifications are often done under entirely different conditions and don't universally apply to all products in the same way.
I would give you basically the same response as above. In addition, there is a little more validity if we compare the specs of products of the same manufacturer, such as comparing the output of the Marantz SR5010 and the SR7010. To come up with a better argument, I would still refer to bench test data.

One product advertises 50 watts per channel and another advertises 80 watts per channel. Both have the same quantity of channels. The argument I usually see in regards to comparing such products is that the difference in power would be negligible because the wattage difference is less than double the output difference is less than 2dB and not readily noticeable. Now assuming that both products reach their specified ratings at exactly the same distortion levels and going beyond that produces the same level dynamic compression and/or failure then yes, the difference is negligible between these two products.

The problem with this argument is that we do not know how these two products will behave after they've exceeded their manufacturer specifications. Maybe one of the products shuts down or distorts so horribly that it's unbearable while the other continues to produce sound that doesn't have noticeably audible artifacts.
This is valid but only to a point. Let me give you an example where this point of yours can be irrelevant. In my two channel system, I typically use 0.1 to 0.25W when sitting 9 to 10 ft from the speakers. 99% of my music collection contain dynamic peaks <20 dB. I have yet to see my peak indicators reaching 30W per channel. Most of the time the highest peaks would stay below the 15-20W mark 100% of the time. So even if there are rare momentary peaks that my meters and/or VU meters failed to display, I know a 50W or 100W rated amp should make no difference for me. As such how they behave when being over driven pass their clipping point is relevant. In fact, I have try this system with my very old Denon 3805, and a few other power amps; and am convinced that the 3805 has more than enough power for this particular system.

The transistors have the ability to output instantaneous current far exceeding their specifications, and often times they do. When your power supply is out of juice, it's out.
If you define "out of juice" to mean just exceeding the rated output, then you are not quite correct (your last sentence). If it was true, HK, NAD kind of AVRs would have yielded superior two channel driven outputs relative to their D&M and Yamaha counterparts. Search HTM, S&V and HCC's bench test data and you will find that more often than not the opposite was true. I can only guess that HK and NAD amps are typically amplifier(electronics) limited whereas D&M, Yamaha etc., are power supply limited. As EE, I prefer the latter, but it all depends on the applications.

Power transformers typically have excellent overload capacities. When overloaded, the output voltage of a power transformer will dip more, say instead of dipping 1 to 2% at rated output, it may dip 10% or more when severely overloaded, but it can still deliver current much higher than their rated current, and that would work well with help from the capacitors. Well design power supplies that also include large capacitors will have very good sustained slightly (say 10 to 15%) overload capability and much higher short term overload capability. Transistors circuits also have internal resistance and they do have to dissipate a lot of heat especially when driving reactive loads so they are also current limiting to certain extent. The high instantaneous current you refer to is exactly that, instantaneous, i.e., very short duration peak current. They don't have the sustained overload capability that power transformers do have. I am quite sure modern AVR's electronic protective circuits are designed mostly to protect the power transistors . Power transformers, again, are more robust by nature and typically can be very well protected by just fuses.

In industry, high power solid state drives are often protected by high speed fuses specially designed for protecting semiconductors. On the other hand, power transformers are quite often protected by fuses that are slow acting to take advantage of their sustained overload capability. Google power transformer fuses characteristics, look at the Time/Current graphs and you will see how much abuse transformers are expected to take. Just one last example, the rule of thumb of a 3 phase induction motor's start up current is 6X its rated full load current. A transformer that is rated to match the motor it powers in a "direct on line" starter situation must be able to handle that kind of current for many seconds otherwise it just can't do the job. Sorry, I can keep on going but I should stop.:D

Anyway, I really do agree with your sentiment.
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Personally, I agree, I do not like this statment:


"The only difference between 50 watts and 100 watts is 3 decibels".

The more accurate and precise language would be
"The difference between 50W and 100W is DEFINED as 3dB"
I don't think I would define that way- I would say "the difference from doubling power usually results in 3dB additional SPL, under specific acoustical conditions. As a totally objective definition, it would have to include something about the increase in voltage at the amplifier's output- the perceived loudness increase may not be equal to the measured increase in SPL.

If the space is very absorptive, that's the result but in a highly reverberent space, the result can be different, especially if the SPL change is at the tipping point for the room's RT60.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Thank you PENG.

My observation is that many of your entry level AVRs from Yamaha, Denon, Sony, etc. exhibit poor dynamic headroom compared to mid to higher level AVRs that may only be rated 10-20 watts higher than their less endowed brethren. This is especially true when they are compared in 2 channel operation.
 
crossedover

crossedover

Audioholic Chief
Where do reactive loads figure into the equation?
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
I don't think I would define that way- I would say "the difference from doubling power usually results in 3dB additional SPL, under specific acoustical conditions. As a totally objective definition, it would have to include something about the increase in voltage at the amplifier's output- the perceived loudness increase may not be equal to the measured increase in SPL.

If the space is very absorptive, that's the result but in a highly reverberent space, the result can be different, especially if the SPL change is at the tipping point for the room's RT60.
I think you may have missed my point!

3dB is a mathematical construct that allows us to talk about LARGE numbers in a simpler manner by using a log scale.

10 log (P2/P1) gives you a dB value
When P2/P1 = 2 (ie doubled the power), then 10 log (2) = 3dB

Therefore, a doubling of the power is DEFINED as 3dB increase. Or you could say doubling the power EQUALS 3dB.

That is much more accurate and precise language than "doubling the power is ONLY 3dB increase".

My point is that when people throw around these numbers loosely, many of them do not understand the mathematics at work in the background.
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
All the above notwithstanding, remember that the guy asking the question likely wouldn't understand any of the explanations above. So how would you answer the question about 1 AVR vs another w/ 20-30-40wpc more power?
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
If we say "double the power is ONLY 3dB", then the statement "3dB is ONLY double the power" must also hold true.

Sounds kind of silly when you say it that way, right?"
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
All the above notwithstanding, remember that the guy asking the question likely wouldn't understand any of the explanations above. So how would you answer the question about 1 AVR vs another w/ 20-30-40wpc more power?
I would say "there is no significant difference in output capabilities between 20W and 30W, also b/w 30W and 40W. However, 20W to 40W is an increase of 3dB".

But, now you are starting to get to the root of the issue here. You have non-technical people trying to make sense of technical data! That never works out well.

Then, you have inconsistencies on how each manufacturer arrives at the data that gets published on the data sheet.

So, non-uniform measurements and reporting from vendors, followed by non-technical people that wouldn't understand what the data is telling them even if it were standardized across the industry. Sounds like a Best Buy employee requirement to me :D:eek:
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
For something quick and simple (some may say this is over simplification):

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/sound-pressure-d_939.html

"There are variations in individual perception of the strength of sound and studies have shown that in general the sound is perceived twice as loud if the sound level increases by 10 dB. Similarly, a 20 dB increase in the sound level is perceived as four times as loud by the normal human ear.

Sound Awareness Change (dB)
Insignificant 1
Just perceptible 3
Clearly noticeable 5
Twice or half as loud 10
Significant 15
Much louder or quieter, four time as loud 20"

Everything being equal, i.e. sitting in the same spot, just crank volume up by 3 dB, you get 3 dB more SPL. According to the table in the first link, that is just perceptible, or approx 23% (see table in the sengpielaudio link) louder using a sliding log scale but that is still based on assuming 10 dB is perceived as twice (100% louder) as loud. Again, this is not black and white at all but just a rough guideline by over simplifying the matter.

Further more in depth understanding, one must read more, such as articles linked below.

http://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/the-decibel-db
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-loudness.htm

IMO it is safe to say for most people, difference between a 90 and 120W amp isn't much to worry about. One must keep in mind Seth's point though, that we have to be careful in comparing power outputs by looking into the fine prints/details. Steve also discussed that in length in AH article linked above.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I would say "there is no significant difference in output capabilities between 20W and 30W, also b/w 30W and 40W. However, 20W to 40W is an increase of 3dB".

But, now you are starting to get to the root of the issue here. You have non-technical people trying to make sense of technical data! That never works out well.

Then, you have inconsistencies on how each manufacturer arrives at the data that gets published on the data sheet.

So, non-uniform measurements and reporting from vendors, followed by non-technical people that wouldn't understand what the data is telling them even if it were standardized across the industry. Sounds like a Best Buy employee requirement to me :D:eek:
That's why we need people like you, and herbu..:D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Where do reactive loads figure into the equation?
Loudspeakers typically are reactive loads. They are also complicated in the sense that their impedance varies with frequency so it could go from being net inductive to net capacitive plus resistive. The more reactive the speaker is, the more the amplifier that drives it has to absorb the energy (=more heat) that don't get consumed in converting electrical energy into sound energy.

It is always good to see their impedance vs frequency graphs instead of just the often quoted/specified "nominal" impedance or sometime slightly better case where they (e.g. KEF, B&W) the nominal and minimum.

The basic formula (equation if you like) in simple form is:

Power (Watt) = V (Voltage) X I (Ampere) X Power Factor

For amplifiers, the power factor will always be less than 1, probably around the 0.8 mark when fully loaded. So if the manufacturer rates the power supply transformer 360VA, such as that of the XPA-200, it means at rated output that the load at rated output will be approx 324W, more or less. Yet they rate the amp's output 240W/chanel into 4 ohms both channel driven. That tells me at the maximum rated output the transformer will be working well past it's rated output.:D
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
For amplifiers, the power factor will always be less than 1, probably around the 0.8 mark when fully loaded. So if the manufacturer rates the power supply transformer 360VA, such as that of the XPA-200, it means at rated output that the load at rated output will be approx 324W, more or less. Yet they rate the amp's output 240W/chanel into 4 ohms both channel driven. That tells me at the maximum rated output the transformer will be working well past it's rated output.:D
You gotta have a good transformer right?

Receivers like the one I just purchased (Marantz NR1504) have very small transformers. This is common among many entry level and sometimes mid-level AVRs. They often have lower value capacitors as well (not always, but often times they do). I used to have an Onkyo TX-LR552 which was a unique little receiver. It was about the same size as the Marantz and touted a Class D amplifier yet it had a linear power supply. I was surprised when I found it had pair 10,000uF 50v capacitors in it. I know that's not tremendous, but it's unusually for such a small receiver, especially considering the Class D amplifier in use.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Loudspeakers typically are reactive loads. They are also complicated in the sense that their impedance varies with frequency so it could go from being net inductive to net capacitive plus resistive. The more reactive the speaker is, the more the amplifier that drives it has to absorb the energy (=more heat) that don't get consumed in converting electrical energy into sound energy.

It is always good to see their impedance vs frequency graphs instead of just the often quoted/specified "nominal" impedance or sometime slightly better case where they (e.g. KEF, B&W) the nominal and minimum.

The basic formula (equation if you like) in simple form is:

Power (Watt) = V (Voltage) X I (Ampere) X Power Factor

For amplifiers, the power factor will always be less than 1, probably around the 0.8 mark when fully loaded. So if the manufacturer rates the power supply transformer 360VA, such as that of the XPA-200, it means at rated output that the load at rated output will be approx 324W, more or less. Yet they rate the amp's output 240W/chanel into 4 ohms both channel driven. That tells me at the maximum rated output the transformer will be working well past it's rated output.:D
I wonder how difficult it would be to do a power sweep on an amp using pink noise and varying the power factor from 0.1 to 1 in increments 0f .1 for both 4 and 8 ohms.
 
crossedover

crossedover

Audioholic Chief
Loudspeakers typically are reactive loads. They are also complicated in the sense that their impedance varies with frequency so it could go from being net inductive to net capacitive plus resistive. The more reactive the speaker is, the more the amplifier that drives it has to absorb the energy (=more heat) that don't get consumed in converting electrical energy into sound energy.

It is always good to see their impedance vs frequency graphs instead of just the often quoted/specified "nominal" impedance or sometime slightly better case where they (e.g. KEF, B&W) the nominal and minimum.

The basic formula (equation if you like) in simple form is:

Power (Watt) = V (Voltage) X I (Ampere) X Power Factor

For amplifiers, the power factor will always be less than 1, probably around the 0.8 mark when fully loaded. So if the manufacturer rates the power supply transformer 360VA, such as that of the XPA-200, it means at rated output that the load at rated output will be approx 324W, more or less. Yet they rate the amp's output 240W/chanel into 4 ohms both channel driven. That tells me at the maximum rated output the transformer will be working well past it's rated output.:D

Thanks for the explanation
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
Loudspeakers typically are reactive loads. They are also complicated in the sense that their impedance varies with frequency so it could go from being net inductive to net capacitive plus resistive. The more reactive the speaker is, the more the amplifier that drives it has to absorb the energy (=more heat) that don't get consumed in converting electrical energy into sound energy.

It is always good to see their impedance vs frequency graphs instead of just the often quoted/specified "nominal" impedance or sometime slightly better case where they (e.g. KEF, B&W) the nominal and minimum.

The basic formula (equation if you like) in simple form is:

Power (Watt) = V (Voltage) X I (Ampere) X Power Factor

For amplifiers, the power factor will always be less than 1, probably around the 0.8 mark when fully loaded. So if the manufacturer rates the power supply transformer 360VA, such as that of the XPA-200, it means at rated output that the load at rated output will be approx 324W, more or less. Yet they rate the amp's output 240W/chanel into 4 ohms both channel driven. That tells me at the maximum rated output the transformer will be working well past it's rated output.:D
What is your opinion of Zoebel Networks for speakers? You know, to get back to PF = 1.

If I remember, I'm pretty sure my GE T2s have this, making them an easy load to drive.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
This is one thing I don't like about starting these threads, they go over my head too quickly. We haven't even made it to page 2 and I'm confused. :p
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
You gotta have a good transformer right?

Receivers like the one I just purchased (Marantz NR1504) have very small transformers. This is common among many entry level and sometimes mid-level AVRs. They often have lower value capacitors as well (not always, but often times they do). I used to have an Onkyo TX-LR552 which was a unique little receiver. It was about the same size as the Marantz and touted a Class D amplifier yet it had a linear power supply. I was surprised when I found it had pair 10,000uF 50v capacitors in it. I know that's not tremendous, but it's unusually for such a small receiver, especially considering the Class D amplifier in use.
Yes, "good" transformer is ideal. You must start considering saturation and hysteresis when you are looking at transformers (as well as the amps that can be supplied). A larger hunk of iron tends to be more difficult to saturate (a good thing). A good transformer will also have better Power Supply Rejection Ratio, and that is a desirable trait too.

Yes, Class D amps with linear supplies are not too common. The fact is that Class D topology already has a lot in common with SMPS tech, so mating the 2 together does make a lot of sense. Class D is more similar to SMPS topology than it is to classic A or A/B topology.

My general rule of thumb from my studies and from amp building: 10,000 uF per rail per 100Wrms. And, that is probably a little bit of a luxury too, could get by with less capacitance per rail. What was the WPC rating on that Onkyo?
 
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