New Denon AVR-X6200 demolishes vintage HK990vxi - For Stereo?

[KeithS]

I have four Infinity Overture 3 Speakers with 300-Watt powered subwoofers. i was driving them with a vintage HK990vxi in a 4 Ohm arrangement two left and two right. Two weeks ago I bought a Denon AVR-X6200 and was surprised to find the '6200 sounding much fuller and cleaner at all volumes though I cannot discern a difference in the equalization. My speculations on the reasons for the difference include:

- The HK's aging capacitors include a failure or have drifted enough to degrade sound quality.

- My ears just like the change and after a while listening to the Denon I'll like the sound switching back.

- The Denon distorts the sound to make it seem more appealing, while actually degrading reproduction.

- Amplifiers have improved much more than I thought in the last 30 years.

- The HK 990vxi wasn't the high quality amplifier I believed it to be when I bought it in about 1988.

- Placebo effect. I just feel better listening to newer or more expensive electronics.

Thoughts?

-KeithS

 

[Seth=L]

- The HK's aging capacitors include a failure or have drifted enough to degrade sound quality.

This is almost undoubtedly the reason. If you've been using that amplifier regularly since you bought it new it's almost certainly in need of maintenance in order to restore its former glory.

Another note is that the Denon may have superior dynamic headroom due to a larger power supply and possibly transistors with more throughput.

 

[KenM10759]

It's a brand new Denon that cost you a lot of money and your brain is telling you it MUST sound better?

 

[PENG]

If the Denon sounds obviously better but only at higher volume and/or only has better dynamics then I would say the caps in the HK are the culprit. If the HK overall and under all volume conditions sound not as good then I would say it is due to a combination of several of the factors you listed, including Placebo.

 

[KeithS]

This is almost undoubtedly the reason. If you've been using that amplifier regularly since you bought it new it's almost certainly in need of maintenance in order to restore its former glory.

Another note is that the Denon may have superior dynamic headroom due to a larger power supply and possibly transistors with more throughput.

Hmm, dynamic headroom. My normal listening levels are probably only about 75-81dB, which is only a few Watts. The HK990vxi is 90 W/channel RMS, 150W max IIRCC, so at these volumes a limitation in HK's ability to achieve higher high amplitudes wouldn't seem terribly likely. Still, it wouldn't be hard to drive it with a function generator, put a scope on the output, and measure the linearity at 90Watts for a few frequencies.


My subjective impression is that the equalization isn't different between the two amplifiers, but it would take a relative measurement to compare the two. A relative measure wouldn't be terribly hard either as my function generator has sweep capabilities. I'd have to find a decent mic, however. The only mics I have now don't have much range, unless the Audyssey mic has a lot more bandwidth than is needed for calibration.

-KeithS

 

[KeithS]

If the Denon sounds obviously better but only at higher volume and/or only has better dynamics then I would say the caps in the HK are the culprit. If the HK overall and under all volume conditions sound not as good then I would say it is due to a combination of several of the factors you listed, including Placebo.

No, it isn't just at high volume, which I don't use much for listening. The HK just sounds dull or dead in comparison, almost as if it were slightly muffled, except that all the notes and instruments seem audible in the same way. I can't put my finger on it. Something seems to be missing. When I've built speakers in the past they sound the same way if you stuff them with too much glass wool damping. Come to think of it, this may suggest that higher frequencies and harmonics are being attenuated by the HK, (or over amplified by the Denon).

-KeithS

 

[PENG]

No, it isn't just at high volume, which I don't use much for listening. The HK just sounds dull or dead in comparison, almost as if it were slightly muffled, except that all the notes and instruments seem audible in the same way. I can't put my finger on it. Something seems to be missing. When I've built speakers in the past they sound the same way if you stuff them with too much glass wool damping. Come to think of it, this may suggest that higher frequencies and harmonics are being attenuated by the HK, (or over amplified by the Denon).

-KeithS

The old caps are most likely no longer on spec, but the way you described the audible differences, I doubt they are the reason. I think you are right, somehow some of the higher frequencies might have been attenuated. For a while I experienced something similar with my very old (>30 years) Marantz preamp, until I noticed that the high frequency filter button had been depressed.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

Mid to late 80's receiver ... not the mainstream Audio manufacturer's finest hour.

I personally avoid pretty much everything involving a power amp or preamp and well established brands made in the 1980's ... the industry was basically lost, trying to find a way to profit when new stereo sales were tanking hard, consolidation was rampant to avoid outright bankruptcy with a lot of established brands, and the bean counters ruled the engineers with an iron calculator.

Harmon International emerged from the dust in the 1990's and up until today not only relatively unscathed, but thriving ... leading the industry in many ways. But not in 1988.

 

[KenM10759]

I don't necessarily agree. I had bought an HK440Vxi new in 1989 and while it would never compete with a McIntosh of the same era, it was quite good bang for the buck. I used it for 24 years without any issues and it's output was fine for my needs all those years.

It went to my son who finally killed it, then he bought an HK550Vxi of the same vintage which he still uses (connected to similar vintage Klipsh speakers.)

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I bet if you had bought a brand new Denon X3100 for $500 (MSRP $1000), I would also annihilate the old HK.

 

[PENG]

I bet if you had bought a brand new Denon X3100 for $500 (MSRP $1000), I would also annihilate the old HK.

I should have asked before, have you tried the 3100 on your RBHs? I am curious to know if it can do a good job with those big ref speakers, at low to very moderate volume only of course to stay far away from their clipping point during peaks.

 

[fmw]

If you engaged the room calibration software, then that will alter the frequency response and it could have done so to a point that you prefer over the raw system.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I should have asked before, have you tried the 3100 on your RBHs? I am curious to know if it can do a good job with those big ref speakers, at low to very moderate volume only of course to stay far away from their clipping point during peaks.

I have not tried. I've only tested the Denon X3100 on the RBH In-ceiling and Outdoor speakers. My plan is to use the Denon 3100 as a pre-pro with the Linkwitz Orion in my new family room (unless someone buys the Orion).

 

[Don Grabski]

About a year ago I replaced the two big main caps in my McIntosh 7270 and my wife thought I had bought a new amp. It powers my left and right channel Golden Ear Triton Twos.
They do degrade4 overtime so I think that is the most obvious.

I too purchased a Denon 6200 last November and am thrilled with it.

The TAG to the left states "Audiophyte"; I built my first Amplifier at age 17 in 1959, and installed more Dolby Systems in Motion Picture Theaters than I can remember.............including a CP100 for the first Star Wars movie.

 

[highfigh]

Mid to late 80's receiver ... not the mainstream Audio manufacturer's finest hour.

I personally avoid pretty much everything involving a power amp or preamp and well established brands made in the 1980's ... the industry was basically lost, trying to find a way to profit when new stereo sales were tanking hard, consolidation was rampant to avoid outright bankruptcy with a lot of established brands, and the bean counters ruled the engineers with an iron calculator.

Harmon International emerged from the dust in the 1990's and up until today not only relatively unscathed, but thriving ... leading the industry in many ways. But not in 1988.

Harmon Kardon receivers had terrible remote control issues and more recently, they have had several reliability problems, so I wouldn't exactly say they were unscathed. If you look for HK dealers, you'll find far fewer of them than dealers for many other brands.

They made a name for having a great sound, at the expense of reliability- driving difficult loads requires better output devices and heat sinking than they provided and the HK 330a/b/c were good examples- the 330b came out because the 330a blew up and the 330c came out because they had problems with the 330b. Sounded great but unreliable made it a deal breaker for we, as dealers, who could have sold that brand.

Mid-'80s saw a lot of flashing lights and fancy specs but no real substance except for the step-up lines from a few manufacturers. Then, people began to want some kind of video connection and audio performance requirements kind of went out of the window.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

Harmon Kardon receivers had terrible remote control issues and more recently, they have had several reliability problems, so I wouldn't exactly say they were unscathed. If you look for HK dealers, you'll find far fewer of them than dealers for many other brands.

They made a name for having a great sound, at the expense of reliability- driving difficult loads requires better output devices and heat sinking than they provided and the HK 330a/b/c were good examples- the 330b came out because the 330a blew up and the 330c came out because they had problems with the 330b. Sounded great but unreliable made it a deal breaker for we, as dealers, who could have sold that brand.

Mid-'80s saw a lot of flashing lights and fancy specs but no real substance except for the step-up lines from a few manufacturers. Then, people began to want some kind of video connection and audio performance requirements kind of went out of the window.

Interesting experience and info there regarding HK receivers. Thanks for the post.

However, and just as a matter of making sure there was no misunderstanding, I'm referring to Harmon International (HI) the Audio holding company, not Harmon Kardon the brand.

HI has recently been listed on the Fortune 500 list; they are a huge corporation. They are leading pretty much everyone when it comes to integrating car audio into new cars from the OEM factory.

There is probably not enough space in a post here to create a comprehensive list, but HI went on a buying spree that hasn't yet quit, but, aside from Harmon Kardon itself, a partial list of companies that HI has purchased:
JBL and JBL Professional (Harmon Kardon and JBL go back to the late 1970's together)
As of 2015, world's largest producer of portable speakers, world's largest producer of "sports headphones"

AKG
Infinity
Lexicon
Madrigal (Mark Levinson)
Revel
Bang & Olufsen (Car Audio)
S1nn GmbH & Co. KG
Crown
dbx
DigiTech
BSS
Studer
Soundcraft
Becker
Logic7
Martin
Selenium
Bowers & Wilkens (Joint Venture for Automotive Audio systems)

OEM Automotive Brands with HI audio systems:
BMW
Fiat
Chrysler
Rolls Royce
Ferrari
Toyota
Porsche
Dailmer AG
Peugeot
Citroën
General Motors
Subaru
Suzuki
Guangzhou Automobile (China, a Joint Venture with FIAT Chrysler Automobiles [FCA])
Kia
Lexus
Lincoln
Audi
Volkswagen
Aston-Martin
Hyundai
Mercedes-Benz
Jaguar
Land Rover
Ssangyong
Harley-Davidson
Ford

Professional Products division clients:
Atlanta Hawks (NBA)
Cleveland Browns, Green Bay Packers (NFL)
Wrigley Field (MLB)
Arthur Ashe Stadium (Tennis)
Nanjing Olympic Stadium
Official Headphone, Speaker and Audio provider to the NBA
The Grammys
The Oscars
Country Music Awards
US Presidential Inauguration
Sports Authority Field at Mile High Stadium (NFL)
Dodgers Stadium (MLB)
Lincoln Centre (New York, NY)

OEM for Computer Audio:
DELL
Toshiba
ACER

Video Systems (new Installations in 2015)
Conde Nast (1 World Trade Centre)
Nike
Chevron
The US Federal Reserve Bank

Integrated Audio and Video (new installations for 2015)
Daytona International Speedway
SuperVia (Passenger Train Network, Brazil)
NATO, Brussels Belgium

Services Division:
Software, Hardware and Automotive Integration
Over 400 Companies worldwide are clients, including Microsoft, Morgan Stanley, Adobe, GE Healthcare, Verizon, Blackberry

Software and Digital "Internet of Things" acquisitions in 2015:
Symphony Teleca (Mountain View, CA)
Redbend (Israel)

Other Companies acquired in 2015
SVSi (Professional Audio Distributor)
Bang & Olufsen's Car Audio Division
S1nn GmbH & Co. KG (Infotainment)

Microsoft Internet Of Things 2015 Partner of the Year
27,000 employees worldwide

Factories in:
USA (Utah, Indiana, Kentucky)
Mexico
Brazil
United Kingdom
Denmark
Austria
China
Germany
France
Hungary