Do I need an XPA7 for my Denon 5308

[Adam Kelly]

I'm sure the discussion about the merits of adding an external amp has been covered ad nauseam but my searches have found scattered comments and I would appreciate some empirical feedback.

I currently have a Denon 5308 in my home theater. It replaced a Denon 5805 that I currently have boxed up and in the closet.

It's been a while since hearing the 5805 but my recollection is there was a difference in power and headroom compared to my 5308.

I have been going back and forth about whether to add an XPA 7 to my Denon 5308 - not only to get back this perceived loss in power (the 5308 amps were a noted downgrade in the Audioholics review from the 5805) but also capture the sonic gains some argue are there when going from an AV Receiver to an external amp.

However the 5308 is a flagship component so not sure if the gain will be measurable.

The GF insists that I sell the 5805 before buying the XPA 7.

My question is: will I get a noticeable difference in power, performance, and sound quality with an XPA 7 over what I get from the 5308 (high level listening, low level listening, etc) AND is that difference worth selling my Denon 5805?

I would hate to get rid of the 5805 because it's a pretty cool piece and I can use it in a second room when we move if the cost benefit of the improvement provided by an XPA 7 is not significant enough to warrant losing the 5805.

I have a posting for the 5805 along with a Denon 720ae scheduled to go live on eBay so your feedback is appreciated!

 

[markw]

A lot depends on what speakers you're using, how loud you play the system, and the room size.

But, I will say that the 20 watt difference between the two receivers isn't audible. For a barely audible difference (3 decibels) in perceived loudness you need twice (or half, depending) the power. ...and that would be noticeable on the occasional peak, not on normal listening levels which are well under ten watts or so.

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/voltageloudness.html

So, that 200 wpc Emotiva may look like a big difference on paper, compared to either of those receivers it really won't amount to a hill of beans.

 

[Adam Kelly]

Thanks for your response. I appreciate that feedback.

I am currently using B&W 603s3 fronts bi-amped, a B&W 60s3 center, and B&w DS3 surrounds with one sub. Speakers are all crossed over at 80hz for HT and the fronts are crossed over at 100hz for 2 channel listening.

The room is approx 20 x 20 and I do tend to listen loudly (relative to my interpretation) both in terms of 2 ch audio and HT but I can't think of a time I've breached - 15db on either receiver.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

your B&W 603s3 (according to measurements) have nominal impedance about 6ohm (with approx 3.1 ohm minimum) combined with "higher-than-average voltage sensitivity, at an estimated 89dB(B)/2.83V/m" - I would conclude that 5803 has more than plenty of moxy for these speakers
also:
http://www.audioholics.com/home-theater-connection/connecting-an-external-amp-to-a-receiver

 

[Adam Kelly]

Thanks BSA! You both sound pretty knowledgable so let me ask this - aside from power is there any potential for improvement to SQ by shifting the power duties from the 5308 to an amp - so that the workload / power demands are reduced for the receiver? Thus, letting the receiver and its power supply only "worry" about the processing.

 

[lsiberian]

No you don't need a AV system at all. It is a luxury. Whenever comparing wattage for sound you need to convert them to dBW to get an accurate number.

100 watts = 20 dBW
200 watts = 23 dBW

You add this to the speaker speakers dBW at 1 watt to get the actual volume level. 60 dBW is the normal listening level for TV 75 is the reference for theaters.

If you really need more volume you will need to get JTRs or something of similar efficiency to actually fill you space. Even then you'd be fine with an AVR in most cases.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Thanks BSA! You both sound pretty knowledgable so let me ask this - aside from power is there any potential for improvement to SQ by shifting the power duties from the 5308 to an amp - so that the workload / power demands are reduced for the receiver? Thus, letting the receiver and its power supply only "worry" about the processing.

No
If you want better sound, start shopping for new speakers, not electronics
Look for buyer for your current B&W to offset costs

XPA7 retails for $1700. This money you could buy for example Ascend CMT-340SE for LCR and still have change. In fact 340SE Mains (with matching stands) + Center with shipping is only bit over 1k but I promise you - I'd love their sound.

Another good option is Elac Debut speakers - for now pre-order, but should ship very soon

 

[Adam Kelly]

Thanks for that feedback!

 

[PENG]

Thanks for that feedback!

You have received very good feedback. The 5308 is a down grade from the 5805 but not from the XPA amps. For better sound quality you need better speakers and better quality recordings. I highly doubt the XPA will do anything for you other than may be 1 to 2 dB more volume and take up some extra room.

 

[KEW]

I definitely agree. B & W makes some good speakers, but the 600 series I heard (don't remember the specific model) were not among them.
Speakers matter! Happily, almost all modern amp/receivers are fully capable for 95% of speakers.

Also cusious. Why did you decide to swap amps?

 

[PENG]

Where is ADTG when we need him? He has a 5308 and a few powerful amps. As a dealer I am sure he would love to sell amps but I also know he will give the OP his honest opinion.

 

[Adam Kelly]

I definitely agree. B & W makes some good speakers, but the 600 series I heard (don't remember the specific model) were not among them.
Speakers matter! Happily, almost all modern amp/receivers are fully capable for 95% of speakers.

Also cusious. Why did you decide to swap amps?

You are correct. While the 600 series is a B&W product and anything from B&W, comparatively speaking, is good - the 600 Series is the "entry level" set. There's certainly an upgrade path and I hope to make that step eventually. The 603S3's aren't bad.

To answer your question as to why I replaced the 5805 with the 5308 - I got a good deal on the 5308 and it offered several advancements over the 5805 (Dolby True HD, DTS MA, Audyssey XT, XM, HD Radio, HDMI 1.3a, etc…) but mostly it was a good opportunity to get the new flagship so I went for it. One of the things I was worried about was the work-around for an HTPC. With the 5308 I can connect the HDMI from the computer to it and then an HDMI from the receiver to the TV. The 5805 does have HDMI 1.1 and this can pass decoded PCM from an Blu Ray player and therefore you can get lossless from this but with an HTPC - the signal would be passed as bit stream and I wasn't sure how to get around that.

Since then, I had to buy a new TV / HT stand and frankly it doesn't have the space to accommodate the 5805 and so while I probably would have probably taken it out of the box a couple times since the 5308 just to experience it again - I just don't have the shelving to do that so that never happened.

In response to all the posts regarding there not being enough of a power difference to create a noticeable difference in decibels - the XPA 7 is significantly more power particularly as it relates to 2 channel listening.

Power output (all 7 channels driven):
200 watts RMS per channel @ 8 ohms (0.02% THD)
315 watts RMS per channel @ 4 ohms (0.2% THD)

Power output (two channels driven):
520 watts RMS per channel @ 8 ohms (0.1% THD)

I would think the rating difference would make a difference. Is that not the case? Is it just a matter of I would need to crank it so unbearably loud before I could hear the difference?

 

[Adam Kelly]

Where is ADTG when we need him? He has a 5308 and a few powerful amps. As a dealer I am sure he would love to sell amps but I also know he will give the OP his honest opinion.

Peng,

I'd definitely be interested in getting his take. As i mentioned in another post - I recognize and understand (barely) about the actual difference in watts that would be required to get a noticeable difference in sound.

With that said, the XPA 7 is rated significantly higher than the 5308 where it would probably count the most and that is 2 channel listening. Does this change the discussion?

• Power output (all 7 channels driven):
  200 watts RMS per channel @ 8 ohms (0.02% THD)

• Power output (two channels driven):
  520 watts RMS per channel @ 8 ohms (0.1% THD)

 

[Adam Kelly]

A lot depends on what speakers you're using, how loud you play the system, and the room size.

But, I will say that the 20 watt difference between the two receivers isn't audible. For a barely audible difference (3 decibels) in perceived loudness you need twice (or half, depending) the power. ...and that would be noticeable on the occasional peak, not on normal listening levels which are well under ten watts or so.

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/voltageloudness.html

So, that 200 wpc Emotiva may look like a big difference on paper, compared to either of those receivers it really won't amount to a hill of beans.

XPA 7 Power Ratings

Power output (all 7 channels driven):
200 watts RMS per channel @ 8 ohms (0.02% THD)
315 watts RMS per channel @ 4 ohms (0.2% THD)

Power output (two channels driven):
520 watts RMS per channel @ 8 ohms (0.1% THD)

I would think the rating difference would make a difference compared to the 150 watts (that's probably achieved for 2 channel listening). The extra power, performance and sound quality would be desired mostly for 2 channel listening. For HT it's less of an issue.

 

[markie606]

Gosh yes, the XPA 7 would make a very noticeable difference over the Denon, especially with B&W's which love amplification, perhaps too much. Transients are more common than one might think, and hence clipping, especially in less efficient and speakers that dip greatly in impedance - is more common than one might realize. The XPA 7 would deal with these better than the Denon, not just because of its substantially higher power and capacity to deliver *current*, but because it probably has better capacitance as well.

You could try it out for yourself and tell your GF that Emotiva has a no questions asked return policy if you are not satisfied in the amount of difference it brings to the table. You would just be out shipping. It would make for a neat experiment, at the very least.

Another option is get a sub or two, instead of the emotiva amps. You would set your B&W's to small and let your subwoofers take the brunt of the lower frequencies, so your Denon can drive the B&W's better. To me, those amps in the Denon are too good to waste.

In addition to this or perhaps instead of this you could get other speakers which are less expensive and easier to drive than the B&Ws. I agree that Ascend speakers are a very fine option, and the upcoming Andrew Jones' Elac Debut speakers look very promising. But in each case they would need a sub, more ideally two. If you don't want to go the sub route but are still wanting easily driven speakers that go lower than the Ascends or the Elac Debut's yet are still inexpensive, I can think of the various iterations of the Tekton Lores, which reach down into the high to mid 30s Hz region. Your Denon would drive them with absolute ease. That's what I am thinking about for myself anyway!

Mark

 

[Adam Kelly]

Gosh yes, the XPA 7 would make a very noticeable difference over the Denon, especially with B&W's which love amplification, perhaps too much. Transients are more common than one might think, and hence clipping, especially in less efficient and speakers that dip greatly in impedance - is more common than one might realize. The XPA 7 would deal with these better than the Denon, not just because of its substantially higher power and capacity to deliver *current*, but because it probably has better capacitance as well.

You could try it out for yourself and tell your GF that Emotiva has a no questions asked return policy if you are not satisfied in the amount of difference it brings to the table. You would just be out shipping. It would make for a neat experiment, at the very least.

Another option is get a sub or two, instead of the emotiva amps. You would set your B&W's to small and let your subwoofers take the brunt of the lower frequencies, so your Denon can drive the B&W's better. To me, those amps in the Denon are too good to waste.

In addition to this or perhaps instead of this you could get other speakers which are less expensive and easier to drive than the B&Ws. I agree that Ascend speakers are a very fine option, and the upcoming Andrew Jones' Elac Debut speakers look very promising. But in each case they would need a sub, more ideally two. If you don't want to go the sub route but are still wanting easily driven speakers that go lower than the Ascends or the Elac Debut's yet are still inexpensive, I can think of the various iterations of the Tekton Lores, which reach down into the high to mid 30s Hz region. Your Denon would drive them with absolute ease. That's what I am thinking about for myself anyway!

Mark

Thanks Mark. Yes, the B&W's are power hungry. I agree that it would be a shame to waste the amps in the Denon but while I am on the fence - it seems based on reviews of the 5308 internal amps - they are not as highly rated as previous flagship amps in the 5805 and 5803 and therefore the prospect of going above and beyond that with the XPA 7 is intriguing. Especially with the two front channels bi-amped.

However, I understand that the math suggests may not a huge change in perceived loudness - although maybe so based on the rated power of the XPA 7 at around 500 watts (2 channels driven) compared to the 150 watts of the Denon (in addition to the other factors you noted). I estimate a difference of 20 to 30 db between the Denon and the XPA 7 but that's just a rough guess based on what's reported here and without doing the actual equation.

Either way - I agree it would be a cool experiment and would definitely want to use an spl meter for it.

A new sub is also definitely in order. This has been on my to do list for a while. I currently have a B&W 1000 sub and it is not a good performer compared to its competitors. Actually, it's pretty terrible. I don't have the space at the moment for a second sub but when that changes I'd look into that.

I currently have all speakers crossed over for multi-channel (HT) at 80hz and all speakers set to small. For 2 channel listening (independent base management settings for 2 channel stereo/direct) I have the crossover set to 100hz - with front speakers set to small and the sub indicator set to yes. I think I have the sub set to lfe + main because that's the only way to get a signal sent to the sub during 2 channel playback but I'd have to go into the OSD to check.

I played around with the crossover settings during a listening test and there was a noticeable difference in performance with more of the bottom end passed through to the sub. I also have the speakers bi-amped and that also seemed to make a difference.

I am not familiar with those speaker brands and so I will have to take a look at them.

 

[markw]

Are you trying to convince us to tell you the XPA-7 will make a great difference? It sounds like you really, really want it and that's fine. You don't need our permission to get it.

Go for it. It can't hoit. Life is short. Enjoy it while you can.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Where is ADTG when we need him? He has a 5308 and a few powerful amps. As a dealer I am sure he would love to sell amps but I also know he will give the OP his honest opinion.

If I didn't have the AVP-A1HDCI, I would just use my Denon 5308 without any kind of ext amps.

I've used the 5308 (w/o ext amp) to power Salon2 & 802 Diamond to great volume. So no need for more ext power, unless (like everyone says) for the rare cases of extreme high volume + very low sensitivity speakers.

I would NOT sell the 5805 either if I owned one.

But if I were to add an ext amp, it would be ATI, Parasound, Lexicon, Mark Levinson, Theta Digital, Anthem, Bryston, or McIntosh.

 

[PENG]

Peng,

I'd definitely be interested in getting his take. As i mentioned in another post - I recognize and understand (barely) about the actual difference in watts that would be required to get a noticeable difference in sound.

With that said, the XPA 7 is rated significantly higher than the 5308 where it would probably count the most and that is 2 channel listening. Does this change the discussion?

• Power output (all 7 channels driven):
  200 watts RMS per channel @ 8 ohms (0.02% THD)

• Power output (two channels driven):
  520 watts RMS per channel @ 8 ohms (0.1% THD)

He also has some lower mid range Denon such as the 3312 and X3100W. I think he considers them just as good for his music listening using RBH, 802 Diamond, Salon 2 (he sold them), and other reasonably expensive speakers. He owns some powerful ATI amps apparently just because he can afford them, not that he absolutely need them. Well, let's wait and hear from him, I am just trying to fast track you something and hope I got it right.

I don't typically pay attention to 7 ch rating but yes the XPA-7's two channel rating seems attractive but just a couple of cautionary notes:

1) If you look at the power output bench graphs from their own bench test, they sort of reach 0.1% THD at 250W, I have no idea what that would be in channel driving 4 ohm complex load.

2) Your preamp may not have the voltage needed to drive 520W into 8 ohms. Chance is that it may though, because Emo amps tend to offer higher gains than average. Also, at that kind of output your speakers would (in theory) be producing around 120 dB SPL at 1 meter, they are not designed for that kind of output. Emo did not provide the maximum 2 ch output into 4 ohms so don't be surprised if it actually output less into 4 ohms. For comparison, the XPA-2 is rated 500W into 4 ohms.

3) To get the 520W from class A/B amp you should be using a dedicated feed, preferably 20A and the feed cable better be short, like less than 30 ft would be good.

As pointed out before, double the power = 3 dB more SPL, so the XPA-7 in two channel would get you less than 3 dB more SPL and that's just in theory. In practice I highly doubt you need more than 200W peak, and I am being on the safe side. I typically listen at 75 to 80 dB (at the most) average with no more than 20 dB peak and I know my amps never peak above 30 to 40W per channel.

If you plan on upgrading to the 800 series, such as the 802 diamond (D3 now) than more power will be great but than I am sure your dealer will advise you to go with Classe, or more expensive amps. That may not be valid but then it would make you think right? There is no end to it once you buy in to those things... If your priority is 2 channel music enjoyment, you may want to focus your investment to get the best 2 channel amp you can afford instead of leaving 70% of that 96 lbs amp to waste.

 

[markie606]

If I didn't have the AVP-A1HDCI, I would just use my Denon 5308 without any kind of ext amps.

I've used the 5308 (w/o ext amp) to power Salon2 & 802 Diamond to great volume. So no need for more ext power, unless (like everyone says) for the rare cases of extreme high volume + very low sensitivity speakers.

I would NOT sell the 5805 either if I owned one.

But if I were to add an ext amp, it would be ATI, Parasound, Lexicon, Mark Levinson, Theta Digital, Anthem, Bryston, or McIntosh.

What, no Emotiva? For higher end speakers I would go with higher end amps as well.

Mere 'loudness' doesn't do it for me. A jackhammer is loud, but who wants to listen to that. One can tell when an amp has mastery over great speakers playing great music ; they surrender their music effortlessly, liquidly.