H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
I've read that Marantz uses a bit higher grade components in some cases. As nit-picky as we are about minuscule differences in audio equipment, even those whose audible effect is debatable, I'm wondering why Denon is more often touted and recommended here. Is it purely a matter of price and diminishing return?

I can imagine myself thinking, "I've invested double digit thousands of $ in my speakers, I have a BDP that cost 4x as much as most, I have a 5-channel amp that I likely cannot hear and 2 subwoofers each capable of blowing out my windows. Now I need/want a new AVR. Should I spend a couple hundred more for one the manufacturer claims has better components?".

I don't remember reading when someone asks for an AVR suggestion, "The Marantz may be a bit better, but it's hard to beat the Denon for the money". Just curious why.
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Sure would be nice to be able to compare them in one place......
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
In the past two years, I've used two Marantz and two Denon receivers (in the $400-$600 range). My view of them is incomplete because the Marantz models had lower power and were the slimline models, but all four of them used the same Audyssey version and had other similarities. That said, I never got the impression that the Marantz were a step above. In fact, I thought that the Denon models sounded better - but that certainly may have been due to the power differences. I thought that they were all good receivers.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I don't remember reading when someone asks for an AVR suggestion, "The Marantz may be a bit better, but it's hard to beat the Denon for the money". Just curious why.
Remember that since 2002 the Marantz and Denon labels have been owned by the same Japanese company, D&M Group. I find it highly unlikely that these two makes don't share a lot of the same parts and software.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
To give you some idea how futile it is to get a sensible answer, I asked Denon customer support about difference in sound quality between the 4520 and the 8801+MM8003 and was told I most likely will not hear any difference, that they were both high end device so they won't be quality drop going from one to the other.

I also emailed Marantz customer service about whether the 8802 would sound better than the 8801 and was told "Your 8801 will sound the exact same as the 8802, asside from the Atmos settings, which if you don't have Atmos speakers won't make a difference."

I only emailed them because I have also read claims that Marantz has better components. I don't have much confidence in the answers from D&M's support/customer service but that combined with my own listening experience (Marantz separates, and 3 Denon AVRs so far), I am confident that the choice between the two should be based on factors other than their basically similar overall build and sound quality.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
IMO a $3K Denon AVR has higher quality parts than a $2K Marantz AVR.

A $2K Marantz has the same quality parts as a $2K Denon.

But actual sound quality difference between them is probably insignificant.

Opinions will vary as much as opinions about SQ between amps. :)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
IMO a $3K Denon AVR has higher quality parts than a $2K Marantz AVR.

A $2K Marantz has the same quality parts as a $2K Denon.

But in pure direct mode actual sound quality difference between them is probably insignificant.

Opinions will vary as much as opinions about SQ between amps. :)
Before you get attacked may I defend you by fixing it for you.:D:D
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Just get a JVC boombox from 1994 and be done with it, sheesh.
 
Cos

Cos

Audioholic Samurai
Before you get attacked may I defend you by fixing it for you.:D:D
AV8801 vs AV8802 Differences on AVS FORUM, you can see some measurements in the posts, I have no idea if it will actually impact sonic quality to human hearing

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1535197-marantz-av8802-13-2-xlr-pre-pro-official-thread-33.html

As for me, I prefer Marantz over Denon, mainly because Denon's look cheap to me, so it's purely a personal choice, that and they don't make a PRE/PRO anymore.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
If they both have the same features, I think it comes down to price and aesthetic.

I personally don't like the Marantz look. I think Denon looks much better. I was glad the 5308 & AVP-A1 were Denon. :D But obviously very subjective/personal.

Now the Marantz gold series was a different story. I would take those over Denon. :D
 
Last edited:
rojo

rojo

Audioholic Samurai
Remember that since 2002 the Marantz and Denon labels have been owned by the same Japanese company, D&M Group. I find it highly unlikely that these two makes don't share a lot of the same parts and software.
They do indeed share a lot of the same guts and software. D&M generally puts a bit more guts into the Marantz receivers though. AH posted a preview article illustrating a small bit of the difference a couple of years ago. Scroll down to the second pair of images and you'll see what I mean.

Does this equate to better sound from the Marantz? Under very specific conditions, I'd guess possibly; but I couldn't tell you what those conditions are. I couldn't even tell you what an HDAM is, to be honest (although I've skimmed through some discussion about them). In any case, I've never had the opportunity to A-B my receiver against a Denon, but I can say I'm thoroughly pleased with how my Marantz drives my speakers.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
AV8801 vs AV8802 Differences on AVS FORUM, you can see some measurements in the posts, I have no idea if it will actually impact sonic quality to human hearing

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1535197-marantz-av8802-13-2-xlr-pre-pro-official-thread-33.html

As for me, I prefer Marantz over Denon, mainly because Denon's look cheap to me, so it's purely a personal choice, that and they don't make a PRE/PRO anymore.
The improvements are there according to the posted information but from what I saw those improved specs would not result in audible differences, still nice to have for sure. I can now understand why despite the theoretical improvements in the HDAM Marantz still told me they won't sound different.
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
those improved specs would not result in audible differences
I've been looking for the article where a D&M spokesman describes the "better" components in the Marantz, but so far I can only remember it. Assuming that part of my memory has yet to be tainted, the lack of audiophile reference to, and support for those "better" components tells me the difference is not audible and most consider it inconsequential.

So it's kinda like having a 100wpc AVR, listening only at low - medium volume, and buying a 200wpc amp. But we do that, and debate its merit. Yet not even discussion about Marantz vs Denon. I find that curious. When the time comes to replace my X4000, think I'll give Marantz a harder look.
 
Cos

Cos

Audioholic Samurai
IMO a $3K Denon AVR has higher quality parts than a $2K Marantz AVR.

A $2K Marantz has the same quality parts as a $2K Denon.

But actual sound quality difference between them is probably insignificant.

Opinions will vary as much as opinions about SQ between amps. :)
It's really hard to do a direct comparison of components, because D&M specifically designed each model from each line to be a step up from each other. Typically Marantz had the top model of the AVR line with the exception of the recent Denon 7200. If you pull up specs, about the only thing that separates the two (Denon 7200 vs Marantz 7010) is about 25W of amplification, 5lbs and 2DB of S/N on Analog (102v100). If 25wpc and 2db S/N then I suggest he Denon, otherwise I would go with the Marantz and save $800 in this example.

In all examples, I still can't believe that all models still use the 2.4Ghz band on wifi. The cost difference between that and dual band is insignificant. This includes the big daddy AV8802A.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
They do indeed share a lot of the same guts and software. D&M generally puts a bit more guts into the Marantz receivers though. AH posted a preview article illustrating a small bit of the difference a couple of years ago. Scroll down to the second pair of images and you'll see what I mean.

Does this equate to better sound from the Marantz? Under very specific conditions, I'd guess possibly; but I couldn't tell you what those conditions are. I couldn't even tell you what an HDAM is, to be honest (although I've skimmed through some discussion about them). In any case, I've never had the opportunity to A-B my receiver against a Denon, but I can say I'm thoroughly pleased with how my Marantz drives my speakers.

The article you mentioned is linked below:

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/marantz-sr5008-sr6008-sr7008

I thought the author sort of generalized things that ideally he shouldn't have, or should have make things clearer. For example, he compared the SR7008 to the X4000. That was not a fair comparison because the SR7008 was Marantz top model whereas the X4000 was not.

Marantz typically offered better quality entry level units, for example they offered MCH preouts even in their SR5XXX series. With Denon, it used to be that you had to start with the 33XX sereis to get such preouts.

By now, Denon has leveled the field a little by adding the 5XXX and 7XXX, but one has to still be very careful comparing the D&M models, below is another example:

http://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/receiver-processor/receivers/denon-avr-x4100-a-v-receiver-review/

The reviewer's reference for comparison was the AV7702, that is a prepro, and has specs and price equivalent to the Marantz top of the line model SR7009. IMO for a fairer, though not still not perfectly matched, comparison would be:

SR6009 to X4100W or X4200W
SR7009/7010 to X5200
SR7010 to X7200W
AV8802+MM8077 to X7200W

Again, D&M models can no longer be compared fairly one on one as their models use strikingly similar internal components with specs that fit in between each other's models.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I've been looking for the article where a D&M spokesman describes the "better" components in the Marantz, but so far I can only remember it. Assuming that part of my memory has yet to be tainted, the lack of audiophile reference to, and support for those "better" components tells me the difference is not audible and most consider it inconsequential.

So it's kinda like having a 100wpc AVR, listening only at low - medium volume, and buying a 200wpc amp. But we do that, and debate its merit. Yet not even discussion about Marantz vs Denon. I find that curious. When the time comes to replace my X4000, think I'll give Marantz a harder look.
Funny that when the time comes to replace my AV8801, think I'll give Denon a harder look. Problem then is, what am I going to do with my 3 amps currently in use with the prepro. In the end my gut feeling is that I may bite the bullet and just go with the AV7703, or 7705 if the 8801 will last that long.:D:D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
It's really hard to do a direct comparison of components, because D&M specifically designed each model from each line to be a step up from each other. Typically Marantz had the top model of the AVR line with the exception of the recent Denon 7200. If you pull up specs, about the only thing that separates the two (Denon 7200 vs Marantz 7010) is about 25W of amplification, 5lbs and 2DB of S/N on Analog (102v100). If 25wpc and 2db S/N then I suggest he Denon, otherwise I would go with the Marantz and save $800 in this example.
It's not difficult to compare the cost/quality of the parts; the AVR or pre-pro cost more usually because they used more expensive parts. The $3K Denon used more expensive parts than the $2K Marantz.

But I don't think people can actually tell the difference in SQ when comparing the same modes (Auddsyey vs Audyssey or Direct vs Direct).
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
IMO better components do not always result in audible difference as it depends on many factors. Before Dr. Rich called Marantz out on their use of cheap Op amp in the HDAM circuit of their then flagship prepro AV8801, there had been quite a few rave reviews including comparing it to the top Denon AVP and other more expensive prepros.

Then it became public, to the point Marantz had to defend their choice of those cheap OPAs (see below, quoted from http://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/receiver-processor/processors/marantz-av8801-11-2-surround-sound-processor-ssp/ ).


"Here is the response from Paul Belanger, Technical Product Manager for Marantz:

We use a discretely designed circuit in lieu of a standard Op-amp. The HDAM itself is sandwiched between 2 Op-amps in a diamond buffer configuration – the 8801 features 13 of these “discrete” HDAM boards – 1 for each channel. The HDAM SA2 is the circuitry sitting between the OP-Amps and is mainly defining the characteristic of the sound. The OP-Amps might not look best on the data sheet, however in this configuration with the HDAM and current feedback topology it was our choice for a good balance in sound.

Dr. Rich tends to focus very much on singular devices and the data sheets associated with them – Our design philosophy is quite different at Marantz. We use the appropriate component for the outcome and final sound quality we are trying to achieve. He may believe that the 8801 would sound no better than an entry level Yamaha via its preouts based on our choice of volume IC – but I can tell you in my experience, singular components do not make or break the final sound; from overall and surrounding circuit design, vibration resistance, materials to grounding points, there is SO much more involved in building a great sounding piece of audio gear.”

I can’t settle the fundamental debate on component parts between Dr. Rich and Marantz. What I can settle is that the overall goal of a product like the AV8801 is to allow the consumer to enjoy movies and music and it certainly does that very well. My reservations about the two channel audio performance of the AV8801 stem from the perspective that Marantz can do so much better. Marantz makes wonderful reference quality stereo gear and I was personally hoping that they would have included that reference level analog output in the AV8801. I also realize that doing so may have completely blown the price point for the product."


After that, one could start anticipating Marantz would do something about their HDAM modules, and sure enough they did something with the 8802. Question remains, is Dr. Rich going to find another weak link that is still hiding somewhere?

Another question is, why wouldn't Marantz avoid the use of OPAs in the HDAM modules of the 8801, or at least use higher quality ones? Even if it was just a cost/profit issues, they would have to be convinced that Audiophiles (the obvious targeted market at the time) wouldn't hear the lesser performance of those low cost OPAs. If that is true, then Marantz must have upgraded the HDAM in the 8802 purely for marketing reasons, and that would be still be consistent with what Mr. Belanger had said when he defended the use of the OP amps.

Reality though, now that we all know 8802 has better spec components in the preamp section, most of us will in fact begin to "hear" improved sound. Professional reviewers have already done the part.:D Regardless, I do think the HDAM and other upgrades Marantz has implemented in the 8802 is a very welcome news, especially if I were in the market for a new prepro. The point I am trying to made is that there are important underlying messages in all these. What you don't know won't hurt you, is one.
 
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