Please help me choose

[Sid v.]

Hello,

I need a new center channel and I want a new sub. Budget is $500 shipped for both. I might be willing to go above that for the right stuff, but CERTAINLY not over $600. Slippery slope you understand.
I don't need new surrounds, but a consideration in the purchase of the center is that eventually I may want to upgrade my L/R fronts and two surrounds to match it. For your consideration in selecting a new center, my current surrounds are 10yr old Athena Point 5s. No idea how to voice match them and although everyone will crush my head for saying so, I don't want to worry too much about that now. The Athena's go down to 80hz and have a single 5.25" driver if that helps. Oh, and the center needs to either be 3 -way or have the tweeter offset vertically from the mids (or even a horn) so it has good "width" leading to clearer movie dialog than my current center (standard MTM not cutting it anymore).

The current sub is an Athena PS4000 - 10" driver with 100/400watt amp. It chuffs a bit on the low loud stuff and lacks decent midrange, so I want to replace it. I do NOT need something that is super huge or loud, I'm looking for good clarity all the way up to the bottom of my surrounds (80hz+) even if I have so sacrifice extension below 30hz. I will have neighbors to think about.

So far I am considering a combo from HTD:
HTD Level-TWO-Powered-Subwoofer
HTD center-channel-speakers/Level-TWO-Center-Channel-Speaker
This set-up seems nice - but the 10" sub seems like it might not feel like an upgrade from current, but they have a really nice line of speakers that could match the center in a future upgrade.

Then there is this from Polk Audio:
Polk Audio psw 125
Polk Audio csi a4
Not the best reviewed Sub...some amp & customer service issues, but overall a respected company that will be around for a while to service warranties and has plenty of upgrade/expansion options.

And since a sub doesn't really need to match a center, here is a bunch of other stuff I was considering:
NXG NS-BAS-500
BIC/Acoustech PL-200
Klipsch sub-12-subwoofer
Klipsch sw-110-subwoofer
Klipsch kc-25-center-speaker
The NXG and Bic don't have centers that match the need in my budget. All those Klipsch items are discontinued, but there is inventory out there for a good bargain (if you all think they are any good)

 

[felipe]

Hi Sid v. I would consider stretching your budget some for a better sub. I myself have gone thru a few subs ( Polk, Klipsch, BIC ), eventually settling on a SVS. I wish I had gotten the SVS sooner, but you live and learn. While the ones you mention are less expensive, but take it from me, you'll be left with wanting more. For subs, go ID (Hsu,SVS,etc.).

As for a center channel, to stay somewhere close to your budget, I'd look at the AJ Pioneer SP-C22. I know it's considered "ultra" budget, but IMO it's SQ is up there with speakers costing more...and it can take the wattage . Also, it has matching fronts ( FS52 or BS22 ). I believe there was a review done on the whole line here ( Pioneer SP-PK52FS ). Might want to check that out. Hope this helps a little.

 

[KEW]

I can recommend the Dayton SUB-1200 as a product I am familiar with that works very well (especially at it's price point). It is fair competition (I suspect better - see review below) for any of the subs you listed, but the price sets it apart! If your WAF concerns are loose, the SUB-1500 is likely a great deal on the assumption that the design is equivalent to the SUB-1200! But I would definitely recommend two SUB 1200's over any sub you can get for $300. Dual subs even out the bass levels across the room.
I would stay away from the HTD sub simply because it does not have a variable crossover setting. I assume a fixed crossover is designed into the sub - either mechanically or electronically. It may or may not work well with your current gear, but I would want the flexibility. If you know you will be using your AVR for all bass management, it would work okay.

As for speakers, what are your mains? The center needs to have the same character of sound as the mains. The surrounds are not nearly as critical.

I only know of Polk and HTD speakers by reputation.
The Polk sub and less expensive Polk speakers are generally viewed with disdain. HTD speakers get some respect, and nobody seems to notice HTD subs.

Also let us know what receiver/amp you are using.

Also, how much music vs HT do you use the system for?

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/speaker-subwoofer-reviews/71766-dayton-audio-sub-1200-subwoofer-review.html
Note that based on Jman's review, the NGX may perform ever so slightly better than the SUB 1200, but it has had a lot of complaints about the amp having problems while the Dayton seems to have a clean history.

 

[afterlife2]

Welcome! Agree with KEW.
HTD L-R-C speakers
http://www.htd.com/Products/bookshelf-speakers/Level-TWO-Bookshelf-Speakers
http://www.htd.com/Products/center-channel-speakers/Level-TWO-Center-Channel-Speaker
(2) Dayton 1200
Alt Speakers:
HVL 1's (3 L-R-C) http://www.wavecrestaudio.com/products/hvl-1-two-way-loudspeaker-pair

 

[Sid v.]

Hi Sid v. I would consider stretching your budget some for a better sub. I myself have gone thru a few subs ( Polk, Klipsch, BIC ), eventually settling on a SVS. I wish I had gotten the SVS sooner, but you live and learn. While the ones you mention are less expensive, but take it from me, you'll be left with wanting more. For subs, go ID (Hsu,SVS,etc.).

As for a center channel, to stay somewhere close to your budget, I'd look at the AJ Pioneer SP-C22. I know it's considered "ultra" budget, but IMO it's SQ is up there with speakers costing more...and it can take the wattage . Also, it has matching fronts ( FS52 or BS22 ). I believe there was a review done on the whole line here ( Pioneer SP-PK52FS ). Might want to check that out. Hope this helps a little.

That pioneer center seems pretty weak. I am surprised at its low rated range of 55hz, which is nice, but the low sensitivity rating of 88 seems kind of weak...that plus the standard MTM design has me wondering if it would sound any better than my crusty old Athena Center.
But I hear ya on the more money equals better sub. Where I am at though is that currently dialog is difficult to understand in a lot of movies (yeah you Statham!) so I want to ensure enough of the budget goes there to make a noticable difference while part of the reason for getting a new sub is to get one with better clarity since we are moving into a place with a shared wall. I understand better quality equals better clarity even at lower volumes, but I really need the center to "speak" to me too.

 

[afterlife2]

Actually the Pioneer center is great. I had it in my setup and it was crisp and clear and handled very well. don't count it out. It shocked me how good it was till it floated away in a storm...

 

[Sid v.]

I can recommend the Dayton SUB-1200 as a product I am familiar with that works very well (especially at it's price point). It is fair competition (I suspect better - see review below) for any of the subs you listed, but the price sets it apart! If your WAF concerns are loose, the SUB-1500 is likely a great deal on the assumption that the design is equivalent to the SUB-1200! But I would definitely recommend two SUB 1200's over any sub you can get for $300. Dual subs even out the bass levels across the room.
I would stay away from the HTD sub simply because it does not have a variable crossover setting. I assume a fixed crossover is designed into the sub - either mechanically or electronically. It may or may not work well with your current gear, but I would want the flexibility. If you know you will be using your AVR for all bass management, it would work okay.

As for speakers, what are your mains? The center needs to have the same character of sound as the mains. The surrounds are not nearly as critical.

I only know of Polk and HTD speakers by reputation.
The Polk sub and less expensive Polk speakers are generally viewed with disdain. HTD speakers get some respect, and nobody seems to notice HTD subs.

Also let us know what receiver/amp you are using.

Also, how much music vs HT do you use the system for?

Note that based on Jman's review, the NGX may perform ever so slightly better than the SUB 1200, but it has had a lot of complaints about the amp having problems while the Dayton seems to have a clean history.

The "mains" are what I was calling my surrounds, they are small bookshelves with 5.25" drivers, rear ported, pretty decent. I use a Denon AVR1712, totally would be using only the LFE input and controlling all the crossovers from the AVR (it lets me set them separately for front, center and surround).
I will be doing probably 60% movies/HDTV, 20% games and 20% music (not HiFi, streamed etc.).

Yeah, I noticed that Polk's budget lines get no love and these forums, honestly, any budget name brand (JBL, Klipsh, etc) seems to get shat upon in favor of Internet Direct stuff. Makes sense...no retailer markup. I just don't want to get roped into the flavor of the month and be left with a popped amp and no remedy.

Dayton, really...lotta love for the Dayton's, but I have heard them called one-note, which tells me although they are well within my budget, they probably roll off fast above 60hz leaving me with the same gap I have today between the low end of my mains (& surrounds) and the capability of a cheap sub.

Please keep the good suggestions and discussion coming, thanks.

 

[Sid v.]

Actually the Pioneer center is great. I had it in my setup and it was crisp and clear and handled very well. don't count it out. It shocked me how good it was till it floated away in a storm...

So sad, Love Nola, we love to eat at K-Pauls...a true original. I digress...if that Pioneer actually has some chops (and my AVR has the juice to drive that low sensitivity) that would crack the budget WIDE open for a better sub...the SVS PB1000 is $499 right now on Amazon.

 

[afterlife2]

The Sound Appeal(Member here Zorro liked them alot) get compared to the Pioneers and most like them more, so If you get them there's room for the PB1000 + an extra speaker.

 

[felipe]

Oops..should've read your first post more closely about you not wanting a MTM center. However, like afterlife2 stated, The Pio center is great. AJ designed it well. Don't let the low sensitivity fool you, it can crank..and take the power. I'm currently using the AJ Pio center with the matching Floorstanders and a SVS sub (SB1000). No complaints here

 

[felipe]

Just a side note, if you decide to go SVS, order from their website. You get a 45 day trial, plus if you check out the outlet store they have good deals..same 45 day trial and warranty

Never heard of Sound Appeal..I might check that out...curiousity.

 

[afterlife2]

Just a side note, if you decide to go SVS, order from their website. You get a 45 day trial, plus if you check out the outlet store they have good deals..same 45 day trial and warranty

Never heard of Sound Appeal..I might check that out...curiousity.

Don't I just read this: http://noaudiophile.com/Sound_Appeal/
Wait for The Elac. Out Oct 1(Confirmed by AJ): http://elac.us/debutproducts/

 

[afterlife2]

These are also well regarded and on sale:
http://emptek.com/r5bi.php
http://emptek.com/r5ci.php

 

[felipe]

Woow thats a shame about the SA speakers.

On the other hand, I see that AJ is now with ELAC? From the looks of things, Andrew Jones has done it again . I might be looking at my next upgrade..

 

[Sid v.]

What is the deal with this Andrew Jones fellow. Those ELACs you just linked as well as the Pioneer SP-C22 that I am considering are speced to run at 6 ohms with 90watt max input power. This is the Beginners forum, so please help me out here.

6 ohms is not the norm, so I checked the specs for my AVR and it says this for every channel:
90 W + 90 W (8 Ω, 20 Hz – 20 kHz with 0.08 % T.H.D.)
125 W + 125 W (6 Ω, 1 kHz with 0.7 % T.H.D.)
I'm reading that as it is going to push 125 watts when hooked up to a 6 ohm speaker. Could that be right? Because if so, these Pioneer speakers are not compatible with my Denon.

 

[KEW]

Dayton, really...lotta love for the Dayton's, but I have heard them called one-note, which tells me although they are well within my budget, they probably roll off fast above 60hz leaving me with the same gap I have today between the low end of my mains (& surrounds) and the capability of a cheap sub.

Please keep the good suggestions and discussion coming, thanks.

Here is what I know about the Dayton SUB 1200 (aside from Jman's review).
I bought two to set up a budget 2.2 system for my GF. The speakers are stock Pioneer BS-22's (4" woofer) and the AVR happens to be a Denon AVR-1712 I had lying around!

I spent two weeks playing with this system and making sure it did what I wanted at my house before installing it. I crossed over the sub at 80Hz. The hand-off is smooth and well balanced. Based on Jman's measurements, 80Hz looks reasonably inside of the SUB-1200's FR. They are not one-note wonders, but if you have to cross at 100Hz or higher, I don't know if Audyssey could properly smooth the response out.

The SUB 1200 is a well designed economy sub. It forfeits low-end (and some top end) extension. It has strong output and does not self destruct when overloaded. From Jman's review:

Since the SUB-1200 seemed virtually impervious to deleterious behavior I decided to push it with some of the most demanding blu-rays in my collection. To my utter surprise it held its head high and said "no, I will not falter". Most of the really torturous movies I watched weren't quite as fulfilling as they've been with some other subwoofers in the past, but this 'cheapie' never put a foot wrong. In retrospect I probably should have chosen different test material; gut-wrenching bass is not this subwoofers forte, yet I treated it as though it was. To a certain extent it almost became a quest to see if I could make the SUB-1200 lose composure, but I was ultimately never able to do that. It's almost bullet proof in that regard, and I tip my hat to Dayton Audio because of it.

After reading that, I subjected it to the torture test from "The Edge of Tomorrow". If that was my only experience with that LFE content, I would think "what is the big deal?". The SUB-1200s played loud, the output was solid, and no nasty sounds came from the subs. However, I have played this passage over JLAudio E112's, Rythmik E15HP's and PSA XS15se's (all in the same locations in the same room) and know there was a lot of the lower bass missing with the SUB 1200's. Nonetheless, that really impressed me! I knew the SUB-1200's could not play all of the LFE, but for a sub at this price to so casually "side-step" the stuff that would cause bottoming out of the driver or nasty port noises is really impressive. There was no sense of warbling as the sub cut in and out, it just played what was within its ability and let the rest "stay on the BluRay!"

Is this sub a one note wonder? I never played them without Audyssey because I knew that was how I intended them to be used. Jman's measurements do not combine the driver and port measurements so I don't know how they interact. I can say that once you run Audyssey, they have a very good balanced sound and were musical except for an overhang, but even that was not as offensive as many more expensive subs I have heard, because the overhang is not horribly long and it is consistent throughout the sub's FR rather than being localized to a narrow frequency band.

Make your own decision, but I needed to say what I know in the context of one-note subs.

 

[Sid v.]

That's some great detail about what appears to be a good budget sub. I might have slipped a little on the slope because I am now seriously considering the svs pb1000 and the HTD level two center.

 

[Xploration]

I really love my M&K v-76 so far. coming from car audio its a completely different sound. they make many models though. Depends on what kind of bass you are chasing though. punch or low filling