Marantz preamp with Yamablah as amp??

[MilkyTech]

I just got a ridiculous deal on a Marantz AV7005 preamp so I had to buy it even though I'm not ready for it (so far I only have a single 2 channel amp to go with it).

Right now I run a 9.1 configuration plus an additional zone on a Yamaha RX-A2030. I am wondering if, while I look for more amps, I can use the Yamaha strictly as an amp with the Marantz as preamp and will that produce better sound than the Yamaha on its own?

 

[PENG]

I just got a ridiculous deal on a Marantz AV7005 preamp so I had to buy it even though I'm not ready for it (so far I only have a single 2 channel amp to go with it).

Right now I run a 9.1 configuration plus an additional zone on a Yamaha RX-A2030. I am wondering if, while I look for more amps, I can use the Yamaha strictly as an amp with the Marantz as preamp and will that produce better sound than the Yamaha on its own?

In pure direct the two should both sound neutral. With REQ, one has Audyssey XT, the other has its own YPAO so they will sound different. IMO it will be a lot of work for nothing.

 

[MilkyTech]

REQ?

 

[KEW]

Room Equalization

The Marantz probably measures better, but both are fine units and you won't be able to hear the differences in the measurements.
It is very unlikely you would hear any difference between the two units aside from the different processing (REQ, etc) they offer.
I believe Peng's point is you are not really going to realize much difference.

For the long haul, I would switch over to the Marantz with a separate amp (just 'cause), but I would probably not mess with it until I had the amp and switch everything over at that time.

 

[PENG]

Room Equalization

The Marantz probably measures better, but both are fine units and you won't be able to hear the differences in the measurements.
It is very likely you would hear any difference between the two units aside from the different processing (REQ, etc) they offer.
I believe Peng's point is you are not really going to realize much difference.

For the long haul, I would switch over to the Marantz with a separate amp (just 'cause), but I would probably not mess with it until I had the amp and switch everything over at that time.

Thanks KEW, unless he prefers Audyssey, I see no point switching to the Marantz. In pure direct, my subjective experience with the AV7005 was that it did not improve on SQ over my previous Denon AVRs. When I first got it, I did feel bass bass and surround effects right away, not realizing I had DEQ engaged. The Denon 4308 it replaced did not have that feature (FW upgradable).

I haven't seen the measurements of the 2030's preamp section but there is no reason to believe it won't be better than the 1020's below. If anything Yamaha has since upgraded the DACs (Sabre ES9006) in the 1030 and 2030 models. The Marantz's AK4358 DACs has lower specs may not equate to audible difference but are not as good on paper.

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-rx-a1020-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures#L6ZcMEBuAlTXD9PU.97

"Response from the multichannel input to the speaker output measures –0.08 decibels at 10 hertz, –0.02 dB at 20 Hz, –0.03 dB at 20 kilohertz, and –2.80 dB at 50 kHz. THD+N from the Audio1 input to the speaker output was less than 0.007 percent at 1 kHz when driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load. Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –103.60 dB left to right and –99.49 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –107.17 dBrA.
Read more at http://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-rx-a1020-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures#Rv2eD4IEVVAiS7Km.99"

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/marantz-av7005-surround-processor-and-mm7055-amplifier-ht-labs-measures#H3tFSPCTdsmRxXzZ.97

"Response from the multichannel input to the main output measures –0.06 dB at 10 Hz, –0.01 dB at 20 Hz, –0.01 dB at 20 kHz, and –0.07 dB at 50 kHz. The analog THD+N is less than 0.023 percent at 1 kHz with a 100-millivolt input and the volume control set to –4.0. Crosstalk with a 100-mV input was –87.87 dB left to right and –87.25 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with “A” weighting was –121.49 dBrA.—MJP
Read more at http://www.soundandvision.com/content/marantz-av7005-surround-processor-and-mm7055-amplifier-ht-labs-measures#p6rqfqjGsE8rWJsQ.99"

Based on above bench tests and manufacturer specs my educated guess is that the Yamaha has overall better specs on paper and on the bench. Regardless, I do agree there won't be audible difference to most people (without the golden ears). As I said before, if Yamaha would ever adopt Audyssey, I will be ready to switch. Until then I will remain loyal to D&M products.

That will likely never happen because they would need the cooperation by the AVR/Prepro manufacturers and there will be added costs.

 

[MilkyTech]

I have a Denon AVR-588 I got on craigs for $60 that produces better sound than my Yamaha ($1700, luckily I didn't have to pay for it)! A good friend of mine has the 4308ci and it sounds awesome as well. I am not happy at all with the sound in my living room since I moved the little Denon to the bedroom to make room for the new Yamaha. The Marantz almost Has to sound better!

So, what is more important when it comes to the overall sound quality:

1. The quality of the signal from the preamp or
2. The quality of the amplification of that signal?

btw - I may not have golden ears, but silver or a silver/gold alloy maybe?

 

[PENG]

I have a Denon AVR-588 I got on craigs for $60 that produces better sound than my Yamaha ($1700, luckily I didn't have to pay for it)!

That is strange! If your $1700 RX-A2030 is in perfect operating condition I bet a lot of us pay a couple hundred bucks for it, even if we have to pay for shipping.

A good friend of mine has the 4308ci and it sounds awesome as well.

Yep, as good as the AV7005 for sure especially if it has the DEQ upgrade.

So, what is more important when it comes to the overall sound quality:

1. The quality of the signal from the preamp or
2. The quality of the amplification of that signal?

Everything else being equal, I would vote 2., but the source media, i.e. the quality of the recording itself is even more important, much more important given that today's mid range preamp and power amps are all close to or past the point of diminishing return in terms of sound quality.

btw - I may not have golden ears, but silver or a silver/gold alloy maybe?

Yet you found the Denon 588 sounding better than the Yamaha RX-V2030? Either the Yamaha is defective, with messed up settings, or you do have some reverse golden ears!

Did you compare them in pure direct mode?

 

[MilkyTech]

Did you compare them in pure direct mode?

7ch stereo on the 588 compared with 9ch stereo on the yamaha. I never use pure direct because I want to fill the room with sound. I rarely even use the other sound modes either. On the yamaha, the movie settings all put too much sound to the center channel and the music settings are silly. The 588 for sure has better surround and has Neo Music setting which actually sounds pretty cool but looses too much bass for some reason. the multi-channel stereo settings seem to get the best full room sound with the most bass. I'm new to this audiophyle stuff though so any advice and suggestions are much appreciated

 

[KEW]

For the purpose of optimum sound quality and comparing the two receivers, you should really listen in 2 channel stereo. When you have the same signals going through the other speakers, you get interference patterns that will degrade the sound quality.
I often run multi-channel stereo, but that is when I am not spending time in the living room (where the system is) but want to fill the house with music as I spend most of my time in office and kitchen.
I prefer comparisons using pure direct (at least initially) because it reduces the likelihood of my having different settings on the AVR's without realizing it. In pure direct, unless there is a defect, you are pretty much comparing the amps because the pre amps should pretty much the same.
What speakers are you running?

 

[MilkyTech]

Def Tech BP-6B Mains
Def Tech ProCinema 1000 Center
BA front presence
Polk sides
B&W rears
Polk PSW300 sub

 

[MilkyTech]

How should I connect the Marantz to the Yamaha so I can use the features of the marantz? I have my directv hdmi cable going into the marantz then the hdmi out from the marantz to one of the hdmi inputs on the yamaha and the yamaha on pure direct, but I can't get any sound from the speakers.

 

[PENG]

How should I connect the Marantz to the Yamaha so I can use the features of the marantz? I have my directv hdmi cable going into the marantz then the hdmi out from the marantz to one of the hdmi inputs on the yamaha and the yamaha on pure direct, but I can't get any sound from the speakers.

You can try using the multi ch input jacks on the RX-A2030 with the AV7005's preouts. Just be careful with the volume control though unless you disconnect all other inputs to the Yamaha so it actually works as a power amp only. Even then you need to be very careful with the input selector on the Yamaha.

 

[KEW]

I asked which speakers just to make sure you didn't have something like Magnepan's (which require better amplification that a standard AVR provides). The DefTech's should be fine.
Your Yamaha is not really designed to be a stand alone amp, so you cannot by-pass the pre-amp (thus, you'll want to run the Yamaha in Pure Direct). It would need terminals for Main Amp Input.
The volume issues Peng raises is you are now pre-amplifying the signal twice, so if the volume is to high on the Marantz, you will saturate the Yamaha front end which will cause lots of distortion. I would probably start with the Marantz volume all of the way off and the Yamaha at the lower-level you use it for casual listening. Then, gradually turn up the Marantz to get the level you want. Listen for distortion. Realize that adjustments in the Marantz volume will be touchy since they are magnified by the Yamaha.
I don't know if you can actually damage the Yamaha by turning the Marantz too high or not, but if you are careful you will definitely hear it before damage would occur.

My Marantz AVR has a protection circuit to reduce distortion that kicks in and a red light comes on to indicate the incoming signal is too hot. That happens with louder CD's, I don't know if it would offer protection for input from another pre-amp.

Honestly, unless you just need to confirm the Marantz works, I would wait for a real amp that is designed for this.

Since you say you have a 2 channel amp, I'd assume you have used it to power you L & R speakers? Assuming it is a competent amp, that would assure you that you are not even close to pushing the limits of the Yamaha's amp section.

Do you use the Denon 588 in the same room with same speakers and it sounds better than the Yamaha? Speakers and room are the two things which have a strong effect on what you hear (aside from engaging deliberate sound controls from the pre amp). If you use the same room and speakers and are either using pure direct, or not engaging REQ while the same sound modes (such as Dolby DTS) on both receivers and still hear a difference, I would be inclined to think the Yamaha had a problem. Be sure to check all connections. I once had a RCA cable come partially loose. The connection was there as in I still had stereo playing, but that channel had lots of distortion. Once I pushed the connection tight the problem went away.

 

[MilkyTech]

Yeah, it looks like I would have to use a bunch of rca's from the preout to the multi ch inputs (I thought I could use the hdmi like a "main out", oh well) and if I'm not bypassing the yamaha preamp, then what's the point. I should still hook up the Emotiva UPA-2 just to make sure the Marantz and amp both work.

Screamin' deal?: Marantz AV7005, Emotiva UPA-2, and a Belkin PF60 for $500!

I had a Yamaha RX-V1 that I got for free from my wife's boss when he upgraded his system to hdmi. A lightning strike took that out (along with 3 TV's, a modem, my directv dvr, and a sony blu-ray) but my direcTV protection plan replaced the RX-V1 with the RX-A2030 but while I was waiting for the new yamaha, I hooked up the 588. Now, I didn't listen to them both seconds after each other, nor did I play the same tracks. It could just be in my mind, but I felt like the overall quality and separation of the sound was better with the 588. Sure the yamaha has way more power, but 99% of the time I am listenening on low-med levels.

Its funny you said that about the loose rca. When I reconnected everything to the Yamaha after my failed experiment, I noticed no sound from my left Def Tech. One of the banana plugs had fallen out (binding posts are on the bottom of the speaker)! I wonder how long that was like that!

Anyway, thanks for all your help. I am going to keep a look out for a UPA-7 before hooking up the marantz again.

 

[KEW]

Wow! That is a great deal!
Sounds like a wife pissed at her husband, lol!