Trading Amplifier Quality for Features – A New Trend with A/V Receivers?

[gene]

In my case I have been poking along with my Onkyo Integra 939 receiver running my Legacy Classics (4 ohm) in 2 channel mode. The processing is out of date (the D/A sounds good), but not a concern until I assemble a 5.1 or 7.1 system. The amplification is about the bare minimum for my speakers, but have often wondered how I'd fare using a Yamaha (or other) $600 receiver as a preamp, and using something like an Emotiva XPA-2 (or XPA-5). I hate the idea of throwing away a $2 to $4k receiver every few years just to update to the newest processing. I do not see any end in sight for this trend of ever changing processing and HDMI interface changes. Fortunately, it will be some time until I can put my HT system together, so I will have plenty of time to read and limp along with the old timer Onkyo.

Thanks again for the great article(s) Gene!

Most of the lower end Yamaha receivers (below the RX-V2700) are limited to about 1.2Vrms via the analog outputs from what I've found. I've tested many similarly priced Denon's and didn't find this limitation. I put in numerous requests to Yamaha for at least 2Vrms (10kohm) on all their receivers with preamp outs. We shall see if it eventually sticks. It took them about 3 years of my continuous requests to stop using a fixed 90Hz xover on their receivers and now they offer very flexible bass management options. One thing Yamaha does is listen to critical feedback and implement changes when it makes sense. So anything is possible...

 

[E-Lab]

Most of the lower end Yamaha receivers (below the RX-V2700) are limited to about 1.2Vrms via the analog outputs from what I've found. I've tested many similarly priced Denon's and didn't find this limitation.

This is good to know! Other than the lower voltage of the preouts, is the quality of the outputs equally reduced? I would assume a $3000 unit would have better D/A and preamp sections (along with the amplification, of course) than their $600 units. I am not a EE, or in the loop on what PCB's or IC's are economical to use across multiple products. So I would probably be surprised what components are and are not shared between $3000 units and $600 units.

If they start with decreasing the amp quality for features, I wonder where it will stop? Heck if the amp quality goes down, then they won't hear the lower quality preamp section, and so on... Maybe the future for the $500 receiver will be weak sound, but 275 digital sound fields and 15 HDMI inputs with wireless bingo games.

 

[gene]

Correction to Article

Editorial Note on A/V Receiver Market leader Comment (5/04/09)

When this article was originally published, I stated that Denon has now become the market leader in A/V receiver sales. I have since then found that my source for this information was incorrect as Yamaha still maintains the largest marketshare in the USA for A/V receivers. My apologies for posting incorrect data

 

[Chu Gai]

Do you have a current ranking for the manufacturers based on sales?

 

[Lordoftherings]

So,

#1 = Yamaha
#2 = probably Denon
#3 = possibly Onkyo now (including Integra)
#4 = possibly Pioneer (including Elite)
#5 = or Marantz or Harman Kardon

Just a guess.

 

[gene]

 

[Alain Singapore]

2009 to 2015, even more features have been added every year since. It seems however that the consumers are getting less and less convinced. What is the point of getting a curved LCD screen and speakers in the ceiling? My last upgrade was dumping an unreliable, complex and packed with electronics NAD receiver to exchange it with a basic Nakamichi preamp and separate power amp at 1/3 of the original price with better sound and easier to use.

 

[surveyor]

I have a Denon 4520ci and the amps are pretty good, my Denon 3312ci does well , also. I use a Outlaw Model 770 amp with the pre-amps of the 3312ci. My old Yamaha RXV-2200 rocks the master BR pretty well. If I would have had the coins to buy the 5805, I'd have been a happy obnoxious camper. PS- has Kellogs Corn flakes got dolby Atmos yet?

 

[surveyor]

If you got an urge and some extra coins see the following:
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/yamrxz1/yamaha-rx-z1-natural-sound-av-receiver-ampli-tuner/1.html

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have a Denon 4520ci and the amps are pretty good, my Denon 3312ci does well , also. I use a Outlaw Model 770 amp with the pre-amps of the 3312ci. My old Yamaha RXV-2200 rocks the master BR pretty well. If I would have had the coins to buy the 5805, I'd have been a happy obnoxious camper. PS- has Kellogs Corn flakes got dolby Atmos yet?

I never had any reservations regarding AVR either.

My Denon 3312 & 5308 are going strong as ever.

ATMOS and friends will be standard on all $500 AVR. Nothing special.

 

[JerryElbow]

I've noticed this trend as well. My buddy recently replaced his aging Denon AVR with a similarly priced (about $1200) modern one primarily to get HDMI inputs (the old one didn't have any). It also has a slew of additional features ranging from streaming internet audio to Dolby Atmos readiness (whatever that actually means). I helped him wire up his system and I was surprised to find I just didn't like the sound of the new one as well as the old. It really made me re-think my ideas on upgrading equipment. I'm thinking of replacing my aging Onkyo AVR. When I first got it, I was pleased as punch with how much better it sounded than my old Yamaha (partially better DACs and partially Odyssey XT32 room correction). I'm going into retirement and thinking I should buy a new AVR that will last a good long time. I don't want a ton of features, I mostly just want great sound going into a 5.1 speaker arrangement (that I'm unlikely to add to) and with very good room correction. I'm thinking of an Anthem MRX 310 despite it's somewhat lower power ratings (I'm still a little hung up on "more watts is better" thinking). I've got a feeling that Anthem's conservative ratings probably mask a simply better and more powerful (with all channels driven at modest distortion levels anyway) amplification system. My buddies think I'm nuts for looking at such a seemingly simple, old-school feature set for that kind of money. But this article if anything reinforces my thinking.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I've got a feeling that Anthem's conservative ratings probably mask a simply better and more powerful (with all channels driven at modest distortion levels anyway) amplification system. My buddies think I'm nuts for looking at such a seemingly simple, old-school feature set for that kind of money. But this article if anything reinforces my thinking.

I haven't seen any proof that Anthem's amp section is any more "conservative" or better than any other AVR reviewed by HTM/S&V.

So I would agree with your buddies.

However, if you prefer the EQ implementation by ARC, then I think it is justified.

 

[surveyor]

I never had any reservations regarding AVR either.

My Denon 3312 & 5308 are going strong as ever.

ATMOS and friends will be standard on all $500 AVR. Nothing special.

The 5308 is about as good as it gets- I'd think anyway!

 

[agarwalro]

I would suggest you wait till HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 become more common. You'd want them to be truly future proof.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The 5308 is about as good as it gets- I'd think anyway!

As good as it gets for me anyway.

 

[poweragent]

I recently purchased a DENON X7200W and just got it back from DENON for the HDCP 2.2 upgrade. After reading the article I'm starting to wonder if I should consider the Emotiva XPA-7 added to my AV closet to power my Speakercraft in-walls:

Aim Cinema Five(2) Left Right - Fronts
AIM LCR 3 five (1) Center
Aim Wide 5's(2) in the ceiling for the Dolby Atmos
AiM 8 Fives (2) Rear Surround L/R

Or will the Denon X7200W work fine? I occasionally like to turn the volume up for music or for action movies

 

[agarwalro]

The speakers are pretty easy to drive so you should be fine with the 7200 alone.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If the specs we correct, the sensitivity is 91dB/w/m.

http://www.speakercraft.com/products/architectural-speakers/in-wall/aim-cinema?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_sc.tpl&product_id=81&category_id=48

I think the odds of requiring a separate amp is low for speakers w/ sensitivity higher than 89dB/w/m.

Exceptions would be playing really loud (like 100dBC) from more than 15 ft away and using 7CH Stereo mode.

 

[Big Jake]

Correction to Article

Editorial Note on A/V Receiver Market leader Comment (5/04/09)

When this article was originally published, I stated that Denon has now become the market leader in A/V receiver sales. I have since then found that my source for this information was incorrect as Yamaha still maintains the largest marketshare in the USA for A/V receivers. My apologies for posting incorrect data

I had a chat with the guys at my local Magnolia Theater yesterday about my upcoming HT receiver upgrade. I plan on making it a Christmas gift to myself. All the new models should be available by then also. During the conversation I asked about a rumor I had heard that Pioneer was possibly going to get out of the receiver making game, to which the reply was no one had heard of anything like that, but, had heard that within the next few years, Yamaha was going to cease making HT receivers.

Has anyone else heard this?

 

[Big Jake]

I recently purchased a DENON X7200W and just got it back from DENON for the HDCP 2.2 upgrade. After reading the article I'm starting to wonder if I should consider the Emotiva XPA-7 added to my AV closet to power my Speakercraft in-walls:

Aim Cinema Five(2) Left Right - Fronts
AIM LCR 3 five (1) Center
Aim Wide 5's(2) in the ceiling for the Dolby Atmos
AiM 8 Fives (2) Rear Surround L/R

Or will the Denon X7200W work fine? I occasionally like to turn the volume up for music or for action movies

The X7200's purchased now are supposed to have the HDCP 2.2 already installed.

In any case, I've been thinking the X7200 will be what I upgrade to this winter, (depending on the new model), so was wondering how well you like yours?