TheSoundLounge

TheSoundLounge

Enthusiast
Hello Fellow Audio Fanatics!

Finally got time away from my busy schedule to make a membership.
I am located in Japan and imported a set of JBLs L Series Speakers (5.0).
I got the L890s with the L820s Sides, LC1 center.
Now keeping my eyes open for a musical Sub as I heard the L8400 is not good for music.

In Japan they offer the L880 which has smaller woofers. :(
Go big or go home.... lol
For the room size we have, we got the front 3 speakers perfectly set for the sweet spot.
The rears are a different story. I need to come up with a bracket to properly position them.
Right now they are up high.

I will stop here for now. My profile explain what units I am using to power them.
 

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agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
Hi! Welcome to Audioholics!

Nice room, nice speakers. I spy a Marantz AVR, turn table, some vintage gear and LPs. Very nice!

I suggest that you take the whole cabinet behind the Left speaker and move it to the back of the room. This would be ideal and highly desired. If that is not possible, get a matching one and place it behind the right speaker. Having an uneven reflection across the front will create issues with first reflection timing. This in turn will create sound stage and imaging imbalance that the receiver auto-calibration will try to overcompensate. The end result will be less pleasing.

Also, to bring out the best from your gear, look into acoustical treatment in the corners and side walls. Bare walls and hardwood floors make the room retain treble energy. This is cause the receiver to overcompensate and unnecessarily reduce treble. Or, you will find the speakers fatiguing after long listening periods.

Last but not the least, what is that Elvis commemorative disc on the wall?
 
TheSoundLounge

TheSoundLounge

Enthusiast
Hi! Welcome to Audioholics!

Nice room, nice speakers. I spy a Marantz AVR, turn table, some vintage gear and LPs. Very nice!

I suggest that you take the whole cabinet behind the Left speaker and move it to the back of the room. This would be ideal and highly desired. If that is not possible, get a matching one and place it behind the right speaker. Having an uneven reflection across the front will create issues with first reflection timing. This in turn will create sound stage and imaging imbalance that the receiver auto-calibration will try to overcompensate. The end result will be less pleasing.

Also, to bring out the best from your gear, look into acoustical treatment in the corners and side walls. Bare walls and hardwood floors make the room retain treble energy. This is cause the receiver to overcompensate and unnecessarily reduce treble. Or, you will find the speakers fatiguing after long listening periods.

Last but not the least, what is that Elvis commemorative disc on the wall?

Hello agarwalro,

Thanks for your comments.
Yes, I got the Marantz SR6007. Martinez works very well with JBL.

I am actually not at the final step with my room. We built this house maybe 2 years ago..... so I have been taking my time to think of a design... so I was aware of the unbalance soundstage when I set it up. I did have the rack near the back next to the sofa but it threw the seating off.
My idea is to have a big wood beam frame on the front wall higher than the TV and place all my units up there. I really want the Speakers to be as greedy as possible lol. I am also planning to build a perfect center stand for what I have (Center Speaker, TT, Albums). I also what to figure out a rotating bracket for the center so I or family can make it vertical easily for the serious music listening experience... cause when it is vertical the tweeters/mids are then inline within a foot of the main tweeters and mid. I also plan to get a bigger TV and mount it and also add a rear projector and the screen attaches and hangs from the cross beam that the units will be on.

Not sure if you noticed but my mains are very toed in a lot. My right reflection point is at the door and my left is where I am installing a small wooden stove. After I finish all I have planned for the room I will see if I need treatment. I have a huge rug.... of which I will be adding office carpet in this side of the room too and my sofa is not Leather lol. The other side of the room is my open beam vaulted ceiling Kitchen with windows clear on the other end.... so it is not an enclosed room by all means. Would love to show how well this room really sounds. :D

The Elvis commemorative framed disc is well I'll let the photo tell you lol
 

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afterlife2

afterlife2

Audioholic Warlord
You can't wrong with an Elvis fan on the forum. Welcome nice gear. :)
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
Hi! Welcome to Audioholics!

Nice room, nice speakers. I spy a Marantz AVR, turn table, some vintage gear and LPs. Very nice!

I suggest that you take the whole cabinet behind the Left speaker and move it to the back of the room. This would be ideal and highly desired. If that is not possible, get a matching one and place it behind the right speaker. Having an uneven reflection across the front will create issues with first reflection timing. This in turn will create sound stage and imaging imbalance that the receiver auto-calibration will try to overcompensate. The end result will be less pleasing.

Also, to bring out the best from your gear, look into acoustical treatment in the corners and side walls. Bare walls and hardwood floors make the room retain treble energy. This is cause the receiver to overcompensate and unnecessarily reduce treble. Or, you will find the speakers fatiguing after long listening periods.

Last but not the least, what is that Elvis commemorative disc on the wall?
Not true at all. I am the one who setup that system, much the same as how I setup my system. The soundstage is beautiful. Being the L/R are well away from the walls. Being away from the walls is the most important thing of all, not that cabinet.

And do not even go into acoustical treatments...Too many people over do that whole thing. You need to read Dr. Floyd Toole's book.
And for a quicky on that subject, look at Gene's and Hugo's AH youtube video about room treatments. I totally agree with Gene on bass traps...not really needed in a normal room.

There is such a thing as making a room TOO dead.
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
I am the one who setup that system, much the same as how I setup my system. The soundstage is beautiful.
Well, then your setup can use the same suggestions/improvement :).
Being the L/R are well away from the walls. Being away from the walls is the most important thing of all, not that cabinet.
Yes this is important. That said, having met this criteria doesn't mean the system is immune to small room acoustics. You make it sound like the cabinet is acoustically transparent :).

It is generally understood that uncontrolled first reflection sound detracts from the mains. Floor and ceiling reflections must absolutely be controlled. First refection from front and side walls creates soundstage. It is well understood that strong first first reflection from front and side walls detracts from the listening experience. Hard floors and walls are a recipe for strong first reflections. In personal setups, the ratio of main to reflected energy is a matter of taste, some may consider it appealing to have stronger reverberant field. In a professional setting, there are guidelines for it and the optimal Reverberation Time of a room.

Assuming there is just a couch and throw rug in that room, there will not be sufficient absorbing of sound energy. Most likely, there is too much reflected energy/ bass ringing for you to perceive the soundstage imbalance created by the cabinet.

A simple Google image search will show that serious listening rooms have symmetric front layout and a judicious application of absorbers/diffusers at first reflection points.

And do not even go into acoustical treatments...Too many people over do that whole thing.
Yet, you are talking the complete opposite direction, minimal or no acoustical energy control in a reverberant room. This is equally undesired.

And for a quicky on that subject, look at Gene's and Hugo's AH youtube video about room treatments. I totally agree with Gene on bass traps...not really needed in a normal room.
A small room will have strong modal ringing below the Schroeder Frequency and reflections above. One can't be above audio science.

What the heck is a "normal room"? Other than that, I'd like to watch it before commenting on what's said therein. Can you link the specific video please?
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
I'll put my system up against any other system....
And I did NOT say NO treatments!!!!
I said do not go overboard with them.
AS I do live in a concrete/tile house, I do have some sound absorption on the long right wall...which also balances out the stereo image due to there being no left wall for 9 ft. Something Gene also mentioned in his video about his L shaped room.
And directly behind the LCRs.

But there is enough reflections to create a good stereo soundstage.
And if there is adequate distances from the L/R to the side walls, those reflections are not screwing up the direct sound or image.
They're arriving way too late.
But I have taken steps for the floor...thick round carpet as a pad and multi thickness carpets on top, covering the entire area between the LCRs and seats.

And for movies, I never have a problem with dialogue, like many people do. Good dialogue is representative of a properly setup system.

As I said, you need to read Toole's book.
And look at Gene's video on treatments.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Well, then your setup can use the same suggestions/improvement :).Yes this is important. That said, having met this criteria doesn't mean the system is immune to small room acoustics. You make it sound like the cabinet is acoustically transparent :).

It is generally understood that uncontrolled first reflection sound detracts from the mains. Floor and ceiling reflections must absolutely be controlled. First refection from front and side walls creates soundstage. It is well understood that strong first first reflection from front and side walls detracts from the listening experience. Hard floors and walls are a recipe for strong first reflections. In personal setups, the ratio of main to reflected energy is a matter of taste, some may consider it appealing to have stronger reverberant field. In a professional setting, there are guidelines for it and the optimal Reverberation Time of a room.

Assuming there is just a couch and throw rug in that room, there will not be sufficient absorbing of sound energy. Most likely, there is too much reflected energy/ bass ringing for you to perceive the soundstage imbalance created by the cabinet.

A simple Google image search will show that serious listening rooms have symmetric front layout and a judicious application of absorbers/diffusers at first reflection points.

Yet, you are talking the complete opposite direction, minimal or no acoustical energy control in a reverberant room. This is equally undesired.

A small room will have strong modal ringing below the Schroeder Frequency and reflections above. One can't be above audio science.

What the heck is a "normal room"? Other than that, I'd like to watch it before commenting on what's said therein. Can you link the specific video please?
I highly recommend picking up a copy of Dr. Floyd Toole's Book on Sound Reproduction.

see: http://amzn.to/1KU0ctC

Lateral first reflections are beneficial in creating a larger and more natural soundstage so I would caution absorbing them like what has been generally done in small rooms by most folks. I agree floor/ceiling reflections should be more controlled.

Schroeder frequency is not always an accurate prediction in small room acoustics.

Loudspeakers are minimum phase devices so if you EQ out problematic peaky room modes by correctly employing multiple subs in conjunction with global EQ it will greatly minimize the need for bass traps. Fix a bump at low F in the frequency domain and it also fixes it in the time domain. EQ however cannot fix seat to seat variations regardless of what Auto EQ companies claim. For that you need to employ multiple subs as previously stated.

Here is the video we did on this topic:

I also recommend reading:
http://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/early-reflections-in-home-theaters-a-different-perspective
 
Ponzio

Ponzio

Audioholic Samurai
SoundLounge ... welcome to the site and enjoy all the tools available to u here ... and it's free. :D We have some of the best and brightest people in the world, if it's audiophile related; starting with our fearless leader Gene, all the way down to us, his minions.

BTW, Jerry Lee Lewis is the King of Rock 'n' Roll, not Elvis, contrary to what others here on the site may tell u. ;)

Welcome aboard.
 
afterlife2

afterlife2

Audioholic Warlord
SoundLounge ... welcome to the site and enjoy all the tools available to u here ... and it's free. :D We have some of the best and brightest people in the world, if it's audiophile related; starting with our fearless leader Gene, all the way down to us, his minions.

BTW, Jerry Lee Lewis is the King of Rock 'n' Roll, not Elvis, contrary to what others here on the site may tell u. ;)

Welcome aboard.
I beg to differ Little Richard/Chuck Berry are the kings, But Elvis is up there cause he sold more and had the better voice. ;)
 
Ponzio

Ponzio

Audioholic Samurai
I beg to differ Little Richard/Chuck Berry are the kings, But Elvis is up there cause he sold more and had the better voice. ;)
let's take this fight somewhere else. we don't wannna give SoundLounge the wrong idea about this joint. :p me & the Killer will meet u out in the back. see ... look at how upset he is now.
 
TheSoundLounge

TheSoundLounge

Enthusiast
Hey guys,

Thanks for the videos Gene and afterlife2.
Ponzio thanks for the welcome!
Jerry Lee Lewis, Little Richard, and Chuck Berry are great Rollers too!
To many great artists it the past! Let just agree to that. Hahaha
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
Gene,
Thank you for the reminder on the book. It has been in my Amazon wish list for a while. I'm finally going to click the buy button soon. The Linkwitzlab.com site also has excellent articles on speaker and room acoustics.

You are completely right with the comment on over treating a room. I have experienced it for myself when I picked up an Auralex Project 2 Kit on Craigslist. This was a very small 10'x12' room and strong first reflections were muddying the imaging. I used all (8 of 8) the corner wedges, but only 8 of 24 of the 2'x2'x2" on front and side wall first reflections. 4 went on the ceiling. Since I had spares, I tried doubling them up and on 2nd reflection points. This made the sound stage collapse, so the spares stayed boxed. It was an excellent learning experience on the value of controlling reflections vs sound stage.
Loudspeakers are minimum phase devices so if you EQ out problematic peaky room modes by correctly employing multiple subs in conjunction with global EQ it will greatly minimize the need for bass traps. Fix a bump at low F in the frequency domain and it also fixes it in the time domain. EQ however cannot fix seat to seat variations regardless of what Auto EQ companies claim. For that you need to employ multiple subs as previously stated.
From my meanderings on the web, I'd come to understand that EQ can fix frequency domain issues and multiple subs help with seat-to-seat variation. Yet, I believe that they will not address modal ringing issues. It seems a specifically tuned Helmholtz Resonator bass trap for the ringing frequency and broad band bass traps to bring the RT60 under 0.3 seconds is the way to go.

On first reflections, this too requires a judicious application of panels in small rooms (as I learnt :)). I have not played with diffusors in first reflection points. This will be my next experiment.
 
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