Some Sub Advice requested

[AParsh]

Hello,
I'm in the process of buying a new house that will have a large family room joined with the dining room and kitchen. I'm planning to add a nice home theater set up in the family room. Primary focus for this set up will be movies and TV, music is not as important.

The family room itself is 21x17.
It connects directly to the Kitchen which is 16x15.
The kichen connects directly to the Dining "nook" which is 16x11.
*Edit - All ceilings are 10ft tall.
To make things easier, I've attached a picture of the floorplan.

So here are where my questions begin -
I have a JL 12w6v2 (D4) subwoofer that I was planning to sell on ebay or craigslist - would it be smarter to keep it and repurpose it into a home theater set up? Or would it be smarter to just buy a home theater subwoofer that is designed for a house rather than a car? I've seen some great write ups about using the W7 series inside a house and users saying it's outperforming most high end subwoofers designed for inside the house.

For responses - if i should reuse this 12w6, what's the best way to power it? It seems most "standard" receivers don't put out the type of power needed. I'm definitely a rookie in this area, so feel free to call me a noob with your response! .

I appreciate the advice everyone, thanks in advance.

 

[AParsh]

Just another note - the "california room" to the north east is actually outside, so does not need to be considered.

 

[shadyJ]

The JL Audio driver is badly outmatched by the size of that room. I would get at least two subs, and make them 15"s or larger. I would be looking at Hsu Research, Reaction Audio, or Rythmik Audio. If you can spend a bit more than that and need something with high WAF, I would be looking at Funk Audio or Deep Sea Sound.

 

[rojo]

Agreed on the JL Audio driver. Its resonant frequency is higher than what is typically found in home theaters anyway. It's better suited for a car's cabin gain. Add Power Sound Audio to shady's list of brands to consider.

Congrats on the new house!

 

[AParsh]

Hey Shady & Rojo, thanks for the advice and thanks on the congrats Rojo.
Wow! 2x 15"s! That sounds like some serious business!

So it looks like it's between:

• HSU VTF-3 MK5 HP Subwoofer ($800 per)
• Reaction Audio Echo 15 ($950 per)
• Rhythmik Audio FV15HP ($1150 per)
• Everything from Funk Audio is $3000+, im going to pass.
• Deep Sea Sound MARIANA 18S ($2400 per) <-- The only way i'd ever consider this is if it performs better than 2x 15" listed above. I am going to guess that is not the case.
• Power Sound Audio V1500 ($1050 per).

Power Sound audio has the XS30SE which has 2x 15" drivers in one package. I have a feeling this package is not the same performance as 2 physical units of similr models listed above, right? I'd link it but i only have a few posts so i can do links yet.

After looking around a bit - any reasons why these brands should be left out?

• SV Sound (SVS)
• Veloydyne
• REL
• B&W
• Dynaudio
• Paradigmn
• Definitive Technology

I do like having a quality sound system, but I'm not sure if I'm ready to drop $2000+ on just subs alone. Still have to buy the the speakers, processor, amplifier, etc.

I'm also open to looking for hot deals on used stuff that's really nice form ebay/craigslist - so maybe i can still mix and match some high end stuff to get the same end effect for less money.

 

[AParsh]

Here is also a picture of the model home showing the family room as viewed from the entry/kitchen area. I'm not sure if this helps but might help some people start putting together in their head how they would set up the home theater system. I'm assuming something like a 70" or 80" TV - probably not 4k (so HDCP 2.2 not important for me), probably not curved, definitely mounted and with some sort of furniture underneath it. My wife and I did like how the model was decorated so we will probably copy it quite a bit, but that TV in this picture is only a 60" and as you can see there is no home theater system here.

I was thinking it would be so amazing to have a custom cabinet built under the TV with a racking system for everything needed for the set up.

I'm not sure if anyone can point me to a good guide/link that points to everything needed for a full system at different levels? On my favorite Computer (PC) website they have a "leaderboard" where they list the best current components for entry, mid, high, and ultra levels of computer builds, and they update it about once a month as new components come out and as prices change. I realize there are tons of configurations out there between 2.1 to 7.2 etc so this could get confusing. I'm still at such an early stage that I have a lot to learn plus a lot to consider with room placement etc.

One major question i have - i see there are a lot of tower type speakers out there, some with 8" drivers. Are these replacements for a sub (or multiple subs) ? I notice things like the martin logan source electrostatic speakers, and in most pictures im not seeing subs separate from them, but they are still being called speakers.

Sorry for so many questions guys!

 

[shadyJ]

Hey Shady & Rojo, thanks for the advice and thanks on the congrats Rojo.
Wow! 2x 15"s! That sounds like some serious business!

So it looks like it's between:

• HSU VTF-3 MK5 HP Subwoofer ($800 per)
• Reaction Audio Echo 15 ($950 per)
• Rhythmik Audio FV15HP ($1150 per)
• Everything from Funk Audio is $3000+, im going to pass.
• Deep Sea Sound MARIANA 18S ($2400 per) <-- The only way i'd ever consider this is if it performs better than 2x 15" listed above. I am going to guess that is not the case.
• Power Sound Audio V1500 ($1050 per).

Power Sound audio has the XS30SE which has 2x 15" drivers in one package. I have a feeling this package is not the same performance as 2 physical units of similr models listed above, right? I'd link it but i only have a few posts so i can do links yet.

After looking around a bit - any reasons why these brands should be left out?

• SV Sound (SVS)
• Veloydyne
• REL
• B&W
• Dynaudio
• Paradigmn
• Definitive Technology

I do like having a quality sound system, but I'm not sure if I'm ready to drop $2000+ on just subs alone. Still have to buy the the speakers, processor, amplifier, etc.

I'm also open to looking for hot deals on used stuff that's really nice form ebay/craigslist - so maybe i can still mix and match some high end stuff to get the same end effect for less money.

Hsu and Rythmik do not factor shipping into the listed price, so they cost more than what you have listed (unless you live nearby and can do local pickup). They are still a couple of the best bangs for the buck. I would also throw in the Hsu VTF15h mk2 on that list, it is a killer sub. The VTF3 mk5 is almost 900 shipped, but closer to 1700 for duals, the VTF15h mk2 is $1k shipped, but a tad less than $2k for duals, and the FV15HP is closer to $1400 shipped. I think Rythmik gives a dual discount, but I don't know what that discount is. The FV15HP is the top dog of the 15"s, but it is a bit more expensive. I think the VTF15h mk2 and Reaction Echo 15 are probably close to it in performance, but it will likely be able to do deep bass a bit better. You won't want a sealed sub like the XS30se in your room, sealed subs don't have the deep bass output that ported subs do, they are upper bass heavy unless you are in a medium or small room. It wont work for your room. The exception is if you can afford something that can displace a ton of air, ie 18"s like the Mariana, but that looks like it will cost more than you want to spend. As for the other subs like Rel, SVS, Velodyne, etc, they just don't have the price/performance ratios of Hsu, Reaction, and Rythmik.

If $2k on some subs is rubbing up against more than what you are comfortable spending, I would just look at either Hsu VTF3 mk5s or Reaction Echo 15s. A dual sub package from either company will be 1800 or less, and will give you amazing performance for the price.

There won't be many good deals on used subs like these, because they are all relatively new and also very high value.

 

[shadyJ]

I'm not sure if anyone can point me to a good guide/link that points to everything needed for a full system at different levels? On my favorite Computer (PC) website they have a "leaderboard" where they list the best current components for entry, mid, high, and ultra levels of computer builds, and they update it about once a month as new components come out and as prices change. I realize there are tons of configurations out there between 2.1 to 7.2 etc so this could get confusing. I'm still at such an early stage that I have a lot to learn plus a lot to consider with room placement etc.

One major question i have - i see there are a lot of tower type speakers out there, some with 8" drivers. Are these replacements for a sub (or multiple subs) ? I notice things like the martin logan source electrostatic speakers, and in most pictures im not seeing subs separate from them, but they are still being called speakers.

Sorry for so many questions guys!

There really isn't much in the way of comprehensive guides to stuff like this. Audioholics is as close as it gets really, with their recommended systems section, but most of the aforementioned subs are too new to be included in those guides.

As for towers with large woofers or powered woofers, that is no replacement for a good subwoofer or two for a couple of reasons. First, towers can not playback bass anywhere near as well as a sub. Second, the location where you get the best bass response is not always the location where you get the best frequency response above that point. Place the sub where you get the best bass response and the speakers according to more standard placement guides. With a couple of good subs like the Hsu or Reaction subs, you don't need the low frequency extension of a tower speaker, so I would just get some bookshelf speakers at that point. The extra extension of tower speakers will go unused with subs integrated in the system.

 

[herbu]

I do like having a quality sound system, but I'm not sure if I'm ready to drop $2000+ on just subs alone.

Then just get 1 sub now, (instead of subs). Get the second one when you're ready.

I also have a big room... w/ cathedral ceilings. Started w/ the Rythmik FV15HP. It filled the room w/ chest thumping bass. BUT due to the odd room shape, (like yours), the bass was not equal throughout the room. Depending on where I put the sub, some seats got a lot of thump, some got less.

I added a second sub. I set them up such that the bass volume stayed the same, but was more equal for each listening position.

When you use Audyssey, a meter, or any room correction method, there is a baseline volume for the sub(s) relative to your other speakers. (You can tweak to your liking, but you start w/ the baseline which is the relative volume intended by the recording sound engineers.) One FV15HP is completely adequate to meet that baseline, and more.

After a while, you will become more and more aware of how the bass volume changes as you move around the room. That's when you'll start saving for the second sub. And when you get it, while following the Audyssey or whatever setup instructions, you'll realize you're not setting the pair for more volume, but for more even coverage.

If you scrimp on the first sub, you'll never know what you're missing. So get one great sub now... a second one later.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

After looking around a bit - any reasons why these brands should be left out?

• SV Sound (SVS)
• Veloydyne
• REL
• B&W
• Dynaudio
• Paradigmn
• Definitive Technology

Except SVS, none of these B&M brands have anything close per performance/value compared to brands ShadyJ had already mentioned.

As for SVS, PB13 Ultra is very similar to performance of Rythmic's FV15HP but costs $400 to $600 more.
IF (big IF) you find 2nd hand SVS or HSU sub - it think it would be worth it.

Velo and Paradigm do make very impressive subs, but these cost arm and a leg - think $5000+

 

[AParsh]

Thanks BoredSys & Shady.
I look at slickdeals.com often and i saw last week they had the Velodyne WI-Q for only $420. I'm getting the idea from the advice so far that a 12" like that unit just wouldnt cut it, even with 2 of them, right?
A new question - how bad would 2 different subs sound? For instance, one high end 15" like the FV15HP and a cheaper 15", like the used AV123 MFW-15 mentioned below. I'm guessing tuning can become more complicated with 2 different drivers?

As far as some used/local deals i've seen i'll mention a few:

• HSU Research is local to me in Anaheim, CA. I'm in Long Beach so that's only about half an hour drive. They do sell "B stock" but they dont update the website, i'm guessing I could pick up a pair of 15"s b stock on the cheap from them and not have to pay shipping. I'm starting to think this might be the best option. They even have brand new VTF-15H MK1's for $709 on clearance since they are discontinued. I see the amp is only 350w RMS vs 600w RMS on MK2. Think the ~$200 price difference is worth it on the MK2?
• av123 MFW-15 powered 15" - $300 local craigslist. I read these guys went out of business already, but from what i've read this sub also goes down to 18hz.
• Hsu Research Subwoofer ULS-15 - $750 local pickup on ebay. Supposedly goes down to 10hz, but it's sealed, not ported.
• Miller Kreisel MX350 12" - $600 local craigslist. I read these are great, esp for music, but im assuming the 12" non ported sub is not going to cut it for my room.
• SVS PB-2000 12" - $600 local craigslist. same note as above but this does have a port.
• I am curious - i see this Mackie SRM 1850 for around $800. It's a powered 18" sub, but seems to be for DJs, not home theaters? I'm not familiar with the difference, but I'm going to guess it won't go as low as things like the FV15HP, but are more for listening to bassy rap music really loud at a big party?
• Sunfire TSEQS12 12" - $600 local craigslist. Similar to the Miller above, it's only 12" and not ported. I'm not familiar with this brand and couldnt find reviews.
• Velodyne FSR15BV - $600 shipped by ebay. Can't find any info, but pics show it's not ported.

 

[AParsh]

I'm going to probably end up posting threads for advice on center, LCF, Surrounds, Processor, Amplifier.
I've done some reading on all of this already and everyone is saying the center is the most important (along with subs) for movies and had read that the Martin Logan Cinema i was one of the best center speakers ever made. It was originally $1800 and is discontinued now - I see one on ebay right now for about $700 and I'm debating if i should jump on it? I'll want a center that is great for the big room i mentioned already. I've read KEF is really good too, how would a KEF R600C compare to this Martin Logan Cinema I? There seem to be some deals on craigslist/ebay for a lot of B&W stuff too. You guys mentioned B&W is sub par on subs, same for speakers?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

If you can pick up HSU without paying for shipping - I think it will be your best buck spend.
As for MK2 - it adds about +3db to output compared to original mk1. Do keep in mind - it's massive !
Also look at VTF-3 MK5 - it's only a smidge below vtf15h mk2 performance wise and a bit smaller box.

I would not buy anything from av123 as the company is long bankrupt, but it made some nice looking speakers. Many used they sub box to build a better subs using different drivers.

As for LCR - just buys the Ascend CMT340se for LCR, 170's for surrounds and be very happy
If budget not allows - WaveCrest HLV-1 for lcr and pioneers bookshelves for surrounds.

 

[shadyJ]

Thanks BoredSys & Shady.
I look at slickdeals.com often and i saw last week they had the Velodyne WI-Q for only $420. I'm getting the idea from the advice so far that a 12" like that unit just wouldnt cut it, even with 2 of them, right?
A new question - how bad would 2 different subs sound? For instance, one high end 15" like the FV15HP and a cheaper 15", like the used AV123 MFW-15 mentioned below. I'm guessing tuning can become more complicated with 2 different drivers?

As far as some used/local deals i've seen i'll mention a few:

• HSU Research is local to me in Anaheim, CA. I'm in Long Beach so that's only about half an hour drive. They do sell "B stock" but they dont update the website, i'm guessing I could pick up a pair of 15"s b stock on the cheap from them and not have to pay shipping. I'm starting to think this might be the best option. They even have brand new VTF-15H MK1's for $709 on clearance since they are discontinued. I see the amp is only 350w RMS vs 600w RMS on MK2. Think the ~$200 price difference is worth it on the MK2?
• av123 MFW-15 powered 15" - $300 local craigslist. I read these guys went out of business already, but from what i've read this sub also goes down to 18hz.
• Hsu Research Subwoofer ULS-15 - $750 local pickup on ebay. Supposedly goes down to 10hz, but it's sealed, not ported.
• Miller Kreisel MX350 12" - $600 local craigslist. I read these are great, esp for music, but im assuming the 12" non ported sub is not going to cut it for my room.
• SVS PB-2000 12" - $600 local craigslist. same note as above but this does have a port.
• I am curious - i see this Mackie SRM 1850 for around $800. It's a powered 18" sub, but seems to be for DJs, not home theaters? I'm not familiar with the difference, but I'm going to guess it won't go as low as things like the FV15HP, but are more for listening to bassy rap music really loud at a big party?
• Sunfire TSEQS12 12" - $600 local craigslist. Similar to the Miller above, it's only 12" and not ported. I'm not familiar with this brand and couldnt find reviews.
• Velodyne FSR15BV - $600 shipped by ebay. Can't find any info, but pics show it's not ported.

I would go for the VTF15h mk2s or the VTF3 mk5s from Hsu. Easily your best bet from that list, especially seeing as how they are so close to you. As for the price difference from the VTF15h mk1 and VTF15h mk2, like boredsysadmin says, there is a roughly 3 dB performance difference between the two, and this is about 50% more output, so yes, the mk2 is certainly worth the premium. With Hsu local to you, there is no reason to mix and match different subs. That can be problematic if you are a novice at bass management. Give Hsu a call and setup an appointment for an audition.

Stay away from av123 stuff, unreliable and the company is out of business so it can not be serviced. The ULS-15 is a great sub, but you will want the ported Hsu subs, a lot more output for the money. The M/K, SVS, Sunfire, and Velodyne subs will not have the performance of the Hsu subs, and aren't even very great deals for used subs. If they were priced half that, I would say consider them, but even then... And yeah, you don't want the Mackie sub. It's made for live music applications. It's tuned very high.

 

[shadyJ]

I'm going to probably end up posting threads for advice on center, LCF, Surrounds, Processor, Amplifier.
I've done some reading on all of this already and everyone is saying the center is the most important (along with subs) for movies and had read that the Martin Logan Cinema i was one of the best center speakers ever made. It was originally $1800 and is discontinued now - I see one on ebay right now for about $700 and I'm debating if i should jump on it? I'll want a center that is great for the big room i mentioned already. I've read KEF is really good too, how would a KEF R600C compare to this Martin Logan Cinema I? There seem to be some deals on craigslist/ebay for a lot of B&W stuff too. You guys mentioned B&W is sub par on subs, same for speakers?

You absolutely do not want to jump on that ML center. Let it go. For the front three speakers, you will want a timbre matched set. The KEFs are very good. You can't go wrong with some KEF R series. B&W is not bad for speakers, and yes their subs are a poor value. You will have to go audition them. Personally I would much rather have the KEF than the equivalently priced B&W speakers though. I would also consider the Ascend Acoustics speakers which boredsysadmin mentioned.

On a side note, that ML center is a really bizarre design. The crossover on it must be madness.

 

[AParsh]

Thanks again for all the advice Shady and Bored.
The HLV-1's have amazingly crazy good reviews for how cheap they are compared to other speakers. Do you think they will be loud enough / room filling enough? Also i noticed that wavecrest does not make a dedicated center, is it okay to just lay one of them sideways as a center or should i consider doing something like 4x HLV-1's and a center from another brand? I guess if i go with another brand as center than i am not "timbre matched' right? Additionally since the HLV-1's only have 1x 5.25" driver vs 2x 6.5" on the CMT340se, I may be able to get away with using these with a decent receiver instead of buying a processor and separate amp(s). Maybe actually go with 7x HLV-1's to help fill the room out more with sound?

While reading about the HLV-1's I ran into the Chane A1rx-C. The A1rx-c gets significantly louder and has much better low end when compared to the HLV-1. They do need power though, so a receiver really wouldn't cut it with them.

Just to price some things out -

• "Entry Level" @ about $3200 = 2x HSU VTF15h mk2, 7x HLV-1, a decent 7.2 receiver.
• "Mid Level" @ about $4400 = 2x HSU VTF15h mk2, 2x Chane A1rx-c, 1x Chane A2rx-c, 4x HLV-1, a decent 7.2 receiver, emotiva XPA-3, emotiva XDA-2.
• "High Level" @ about $5200 = 2x HSU VTF15h mk2, 2x CMT340se, 1x CMT340se center, 4x CBM-170, Emotiva XPA-7, Emotiva XD-2, If i ran all drivers from the XPA-7 do i still need a receiver? Sorry I'm new to how separates work, I've never worked with separates in house before, but seems it would be similar to a reciever & amp in a car stereo.

That Entry level might be the winner to get started. I'll have to go hear some stuff in person as suggested.

 

[shadyJ]

I wouldn't worry about getting separate amplifiers for the moment. Separate amps is if you want to crank your system hard, or if you want to take a load off your AVR.

The HVL-1 stuff is nice for a low budget system, but on your budget, you can do better. The HVL-1s will not have the dynamic range of the Ascends. From the systems you outlined, I would go for the "high level" system minus the Emotiva stuff. I would just get a good AVR and go from there. I don't know why you want the Emotiva XD-2 unless you need a headphone amplifier, it is a two channel DAC but you are after a 7 channel setup.

Go give Hsu's speakers a listen too, they are quite good. Neither the Ascends nor the Hsu's will need a separate amplifier, they can get plenty loud with a normal AVR.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

One thing you should absolutely not do is to put the 2 way TW (tweeter,woofer) speaker on the side.
Wavecrest is spin-off from Ascend, and while both excellent speakers, Ascent's CMT-340SE have a definite edge over HLV-1.

I aggree with ShadyJ - skip the separate amp. Solid AVR is all you need.
HSU speakers - I have heard them - they are great value, especially for theater uses and larger spaces (if bookshelves are required for some reason), as they would play loudly with easy, but for music or mixed uses I would recommend to stick with Ascend.

 

[AParsh]

Ok, now knowing I dont need to do the whole amplifier/processor separates this will be a lot less expensive. In fact I may just order the Ascend LCR this week. The Emotiva XD-2 was the wrong thing i meant to mention, i meant to mention some sort of processor/preamp, but let's forget that anyway.

I'm currently using a Logitech Z-5450 in 3.1 that I bought about 10 years ago and has been running strong. It's surprisingly loud for a computer speaker set up, but it was also about $500 instead of the typical $100-200 for computer speakers. I have it connected to my Vizio 65" TV by Toslink.

I'm thinking it might be fun to temporarily run the ascend's off this? It puts out 310w RMS, not sure how that divides to the LCR channels.

Also for the CMT340SE's - there shouldn't be an issue getting basic bookshelf speaker stands for these, right? I'm not sure if I like the look of the tower stands from Ascend, i like the look of the "Pole" holding something up better for the room its going in. I'm sure there is a wall bracket out there that holds speakers out from the wall 2ft? That would maybe be even more ideal.

Lastly would you agree it's best to wait a few months to buy the AVR? As much as I likely wont need HDCP 2.2 soon it wont hurt to get it now if I need it a few years down the road. Is there a brand you recommend that has the best output power? I'm sure i can dig through reviews, but i'd rather hear it from someone that knows what they are talking about.

 

[AParsh]

Pulled the trigger on the Ascends today - they had 1 3.0 set of the CMT340SE's available B-stock with the same warranty for about $200 off, so i went for it. Also grabbed 2x 170's since they were on sale.
About $1000 even to the door.

Going to audition the HSU subs tomorrow at noon.

That just leaves a receiver, cabling, and i guess some cable hiding stuff. I'd love to hide the wire inside the wall...but i know that's going to be a huge project so i may just run those low profile cable hider/cover things and paint them to match the wall.