im in dire need of preamp help

[big O]

guys , I was your typical soundbar buyer a year ago. everybody I know has one- but I decided to not go that route. I bought best buy horn tweeter speakers (mistake)(dont want to name names) and a low end 5.1 receiver (was on sale for $200 also a mistake-its not denon marantz yamaha or onkyo or pioneer) .I found good used deals on 2x 12" subs and have no problem there. I fought the sound for 8 months until I finally decided to change everything. it was grainy, flabby ,sibilant, and not detailed.

so I bought a nice amp that sounds 10x better than whats in the receiver, then bought a rotel 1069 preamp and the combination sounds AMAZING. so smooth. so detailed, so clear. then I changed the speakers to a traditional tweeter design and the sound is just creamy. its doesnt have the detail of the best buy speaker but it doesnt have the harsh highs either.

here is my problem. my horn speakers are too bright, and the new speakers are great but a little bit muted on the high end. Ive been playing with rew and would like to use a good eq to tweak the sound a little bit.

so my question is this - the rotel sounds GREAT (imo) but does not decode dd+(netflix) nor does it have eq.
is there a preamp new or used under $700 that has full eq and sounds as good as the rotel (emotiva umc200 has this but has had some bad reviews on sound quality)

or would it be better for me to get an outboard 5.1 channel eq and use that with the rotel. Im looking for the best budget sound quality possible.

thanks all.

 

[markw]

I've found that the speakers set the tone, so to speak, of the overall sound, not the electronics.

 

[big O]

i beg to disagree A LITTLE BIT, based on the fact that on the same speakers I have tested 4 different amps, and 3 different preamp sections. the amp and preamp imo has a big effect on the sound quality. the sonic signature of the speaker is still there but the punchiness, clarity, definition, etc are very affected by amp and preamp. I even have an amp that rolls of the high end (thx)
what im looking for is a great sounding but low budget method to add just a little bit of eq so I dont spend all my money trying different speakers. buying used speakers, its difficult to demo them in your room, and the local stores around me do a poor job of demoing their speakers( but i only buy used now anyway so thats a moot point.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

There are no full featured surround pre/pro in your budget. Deal with it.
Now, That said you could get mid-range receiver
(with pre-outs) which will support netflix surround and priced around your budget:
http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-X3000-7-2-Channel-Discontinued-Manufacturer/dp/B00CALM12W/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1434995604&sr=8-1&keywords=denon+x3000

but you desperately set against using receivers as pre/pro - you could get a refub 7701 here:
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/marav7701/marantz-av7701-7.2-4k-3d-av-preamp/processor-networking/1.html#!more

 

[big O]

Thanks for the reply. I'm afraid you are correct. 700 won't buy me a good preamp with eq.

I did look at the 7701 and it may be the option but I was hoping to be able to have a programmable eq vs audyssey and it doesn't look like it has that option.

Maybe I should also give the umc200 another look. It has 11 bands parametric per channel and can be had for about 400 uses. It also decodes dd plus.

Can anyone give me some input on its sound quality?

Also,going back to other option is anyone running outboard eqs or is that a big waste of time nowadays.

Sorry for all the questions I'm trying to not make the same mistake I made last year getting something without knowing all available options

 

[agarwalro]

If it is just eq capabilities you are hoping to achieve you can look at stand alone DSPs like, MiniDSP, Dirac, DeqX, Behringer DCX2496, etc.

 

[big O]

Hey thanks for that. those look like they could work great.

For now though I kind of decided to not use eq and use other methods to tweak my sound(room treatment etc). The sq is already quite amazing compared to what it was and my ears are getting used to the less trebly sound.

As for decoding dd+ , I found,after much research, that I can get an oppo bluray player for $499 that will decode all the hd formats, and has amazing sound quality As well as hdmi inputs for netflix.

I can run that to the rotel, bypass any processing on the rotel and just use the preamp for volume control.

there is so much stuff out there the average Joe like me has no idea about, it's mind boggling. It's almost a second job trying to find this info .

 

[agarwalro]

For now though I kind of decided to not use eq and use other methods to tweak my sound(room treatment etc). The sq is already quite amazing compared to what it was and my ears are getting used to the less trebly sound.

Cool! Definitely agree, first get the best speakers possible, then optimize their placement and lastly controlling room acoustics should be attempted, before resorting to EQ/DSP. (I'll make an exception for subs.)

I spent days with my setup in Pure Direct and used RoomEq Wizard to eek the best out of my speakers and subs before even running auto calibration. It took a little bit of tweaking after that to get the best sound. The net result was that it has made relatively minor effect in the mids and highs. But, the bass was very impressively controlled. Altogether, I did not lose any upper mid and treble clarity of Pure Direct and gained a lot of bass control from Audyssey Room Correction software. This seemed to also improve the lower mids. Altogether, makes me .

Ideally, I'd have put up some bass absorption and diffusion panels before doing any EQ/DSP for room response correction.

 

[big O]

thanks man. its definitely an exciting journey. and im going to try and practice the less is more approach

 

[PENG]

thanks man. its definitely an exciting journey. and im going to try and practice the less is more approach

For a little more than $700 you can get a Denon AVR-X4000 that features the flag ship Audyssey X32 plus Sub EQ HT that can work nicely with your two 12" subs. Then you can trade in the Rotel preamp for a 2 or 3 channel power amp. The X4000 can drive the surround channels easily.

 

[big O]

guys, thank you all so much for the advice. ive learned a lot in just the last three days. here is where i am right now:

i spent some time yesterday using REW to dial in my left and right speakers. they sound amazing but as noted a little boomy. well, rew showed a big boost from about 80-200hz that i felt was the reason for this . i was able to dial this completely out and now there is no boom- just awesomness. i moved the speakers as far forward as i could which was still only about a foot from the wall. i also plugged the ports and this cleaned it up a lot. finally, since im using two stacked speakers per side, i oriented the tweeters to be far up and far down and this gave the best clarity.

btw, here is a quick rundown of my current setup

• fronts are two paradigm atoms per side wired in parallel
• paradigm cc170 center
• rears for now are celestion but will be upgrading to paradigm
• all channels are driven by a Sonance 5150 165wpc at 8 ohms , 200 wpc at 4ohms
• subs are kenwood sw-x1 12" thx driven by kenwood mx5000 bridged 270 watts
• and a paradigm pw 2200 12" with a built in 250 watt amp.
• clearly a budget setup but to my ears sounds amazing ,especially considering the price paid.

So i can say i am completely satisfied with the sound now and the only thing i may ever do would be to eq the subwoofer but at this point im fine with the sound without any eq

having said that, here is where i am and what i now need help with.
the rotel reciever will not decode dolby true hd , digital plus, dts hd ma.

for watching bluray discs in these formats, is there a noticeable improvement in the audio quality that should make me consider upgrading to a unit that decodes these???

btw, a summary of what ive found so far.

• outlaw audio 975 $549 decodes all above but no eq
• oppo 103 decodes all above also no eq but ive heard sound quality is great
• emotiva umc 200 used about $400 decodes all above and 11 band eq.sq described as bright but nice, but not as nice as oppo.
• used integra preamps.eg 80.3 about $900 decodes all above,15 band eq.sq described as nice.
• oppo 105 at $1100 decodes all above no eq but sound quality described as the best
• behringer bfd $200 could be good for equalizing the bass if needed

looking forward to any and all feedback.

thanks

 

[slipperybidness]

Your mains are acutally 2 speakers per channel, in parallel config???

You best be very careful with the volume knob, that's a good way to fry your amp!

Not to mention other problems that it can cause.

 

[big O]

That is correct. I'm running 4 atoms. Wired two per side in parallel.

Can you tell me a little more about what problems can occur. If needed I've got another amp and can just run each one to is own channel but the guy I bought them from was running them this way

Thanks.

 

[markw]

I may be out of line here but IIWY I'd be concentrating more on investing in speakers as opposed to more electronics, but YMMV.

 

[big O]

I may be out of line here but IIWY I'd be concentrating more on investing in speakers as opposed to more electronics, but YMMV.

I'm all ears. Can you please expound?

 

[markw]

I pretty much did in post 2, but you didn't want to hear it then. Personally, I think you're lookin' for love in all the wrong places, but YMMV.

 

[slipperybidness]

Do you know the rated impedance of those speakers?

If you connect 2 identical speakers in parallel, then the power of the amplifier output is doubled. In other words, if you have 2x 8 ohm speakers connected in parallel, then the amp sees this as 1x 4 ohm load.

Pretty much any modern amp will tell you that if you run in parallel config, then 8 ohm is the minimum rating PER SPEAKER that you should run, so that you end up with a 4 ohm load seen by the amp.

A 2ohm or lower load at an amp ("most" amps) is asking for trouble.

Edit: I should also mention that stacking 2 speakers that are playing the same signal can also be detrimental to sound quality. It has to do with constructive/destructive interference patterns. There are several articles about this, even on this site, so I will leave it to you to find and read up on that.

 

[big O]

I pretty much did in post 2, but you didn't want to hear it then. Personally, I think you're lookin' for love in all the wrong places, but YMMV.

what im asking is are you saying the paradigms are not up to par?

thanks

 

[slipperybidness]

what im asking is are you saying the paradigms are not up to par?

thanks

It's personal preference of speakers.

What he is saying is that you will get bigger improvements by spending the big $ on speakers and less $ on electronics.

In general, you should shoot for about 70% of your total budget on the speakers!

 

[big O]

Do you know the rated impedance of those speakers?

If you connect 2 identical speakers in parallel, then the power of the amplifier output is doubled. In other words, if you have 2x 8 ohm speakers connected in parallel, then the amp sees this as 1x 4 ohm load.

Pretty much any modern amp will tell you that if you run in parallel config, then 8 ohm is the minimum rating PER SPEAKER that you should run, so that you end up with a 4 ohm load seen by the amp.

A 2ohm or lower load at an amp ("most" amps) is asking for trouble.

Edit: I should also mention that stacking 2 speakers that are playing the same signal can also be detrimental to sound quality. It has to do with constructive/destructive interference patterns. There are several articles about this, even on this site, so I will leave it to you to find and read up on that.

hi thanks for the info- im not too smart when it comes to these things. so im running 2x 8ohm speakers into each main channel. so it becomes a nominal 4ohm load. where im a little lost is the 2 ohm load.

as for stacking speakers - i will do a search. but would you be so kind as to link me to some topics on this as well?