Listening to Poor Recordings of Great Music

[ThrownByBabe]

I am new to the group and getting into higher-quality audio later in life.

My wife and I are currently auditioning GoldenEar and PSB speakers and definitely hearing what we have been missing. Soundstage width and depth, subtleties in the music we’ve never heard before – the emotional impact of hearing great music on great systems.

We are also - not surprisingly - hearing that some of the poor recordings I purposely brought sound terrible – much worse than on our lesser system at home. I own a lot of great performances which are not recorded well. And I will continue to listen to them, not expecting them to magically sound like great recordings, but to enjoy the musicianship. I don’t want them to sound worse.

My questions is, how do you listen to these inferior recordings at home? Do you use a secondary system (lower end) which is more tolerant? Does tube warmth help?

Thanks for any advice you have.

 

[highfigh]

Have you listened to music in a noisy place? In order to really hear the details, you need to concentrate on the sound of the instruments and what's being played, not the sound quality. This is the same- you either need to listen through the noise/bad sound (whatever this actually means) or don't listen critically for those recordings.

I like tubes for some things- guitar amps being the main one but a great tube amp for this is more expensive than a very good solid state amp.

What is it about the sound that's worst? Background noise, clicks and pops, EQ, the mix,...?

A higher quality system will reveal a lot that's not audible on a lesser system and often, it's due to the speakers used during recording/mixing/mastering. Unless you can find info for what was used on every recording, it's not going to be reproduced in the same way.

 

[Ponzio]

We are also - not surprisingly - hearing that some of the poor recordings I purposely brought sound terrible – much worse than on our lesser system at home. I own a lot of great performances which are not recorded well. And I will continue to listen to them, not expecting them to magically sound like great recordings, but to enjoy the musicianship. I don’t want them to sound worse.

My questions is, how do you listen to these inferior recordings at home? Do you use a secondary system (lower end) which is more tolerant? Does tube warmth help?

Thanks for any advice you have.

crappy recordings are crappy recordings and nothing is going to change that, no matter what type of system(s) they're playing on, tube or solid state. u can pick different EQ's depending on ur receiver options but it will more than likely still sound like shite. what u hope and pray for is that the artist/label remastered the album; for example Led Zeppilin. the 1st 4 album pressings on Atlantic were putrid but luckily they've been remastered ... twice ... and the last remaster was fantastic.

 

[PENG]

If they are digital such as CDs you can try converting them to MP3 resolution and see if that helps. I have not tried it but may do so out of curiosity.

 

[Swerd]

Welcome to AH!

My wife and I are currently auditioning GoldenEar and PSB speakers and definitely hearing what we have been missing. Soundstage width and depth, subtleties in the music we’ve never heard before – the emotional impact of hearing great music on great systems.

We are also - not surprisingly - hearing that some of the poor recordings I purposely brought sound terrible – much worse than on our lesser system at home. I own a lot of great performances which are not recorded well. And I will continue to listen to them, not expecting them to magically sound like great recordings, but to enjoy the musicianship. I don’t want them to sound worse.

My questions is, how do you listen to these inferior recordings at home? Do you use a secondary system (lower end) which is more tolerant? Does tube warmth help?

Don't jump to any conclusions without listening to your old recordings first with new speakers. You may find they vary widely. Some will sound unlistenable, and others may surprise you. Wait and see.

I doubt if dropping money on a tube amp will help matters. Sometimes, with noisy old recordings, a simple adjustment of tone controls (less treble) can make a large difference.

On the other hand, I replaced a few older classical recordings I had with new CDs. The difference & benefit was huge, and in my opinion, worth the price. Look especially for all digital recordings carefully made by such labels as Telarc.

 

[Ponzio]

If they are digital such as CDs you can try converting them to MP3 resolution and see if that helps. I have not tried it but may do so out of curiosity.

I have and not to be rude but the same theory applies; crap in, crap out. I've worked with Audacity with cd's, albums, streaming, etc. and while it's a must have for any digital music aficionado, there's always compromises to the sound.

 

[markw]

This is where music lovers and tech lovers part ways.

I listen to a lot of music from the 30's' 40's and 50's so my sonic expectations are tempered with the knowledge that recording technology has improved considerably over time. So, do I refuse to listen to the music I love because is sounds crappy, or do I gin and beer it and listen through the imperfections to the music?

I choose the latter lest I be called an "audiophile", which I see as one who puts the sound ahead of the music. However, I've even been known to tweak the tone controls on occasion.

 

[agarwalro]

Welcome to AH Forums!

I own a lot of great performances which are not recorded well. And I will continue to listen to them, not expecting them to magically sound like great recordings, but to enjoy the musicianship. I don’t want them to sound worse.

You sort of answer your own question. Ignore the recording quality and enjoy the music. This is something all of us struggle with. There is a definite tendency to spiral down the rabbit hole of upgrades, measurements, room treatments, recording quality, etc. while forgetting the end goal. To have a setup that transports us away from the mundane/hamster wheel while we're in the sweet spot.

My questions is, how do you listen to these inferior recordings at home? Do you use a secondary system (lower end) which is more tolerant? Does tube warmth help?

I have one setup for music and movies/casual and critical listening. It helps appreciate good recordings that much more. Over time I have developed an appreciation for the art in the science of a recording engineer's line of work.

 

[PENG]

I have and not to be rude but the same theory applies; crap in, crap out. I've worked with Audacity with cd's, albums, streaming, etc. and while it's a must have for any digital music aficionado, there's always compromises to the sound.

I understand the principle of crap in, crap out. Was just wondering if the out crap could become softer and less irritating crap than the in crap. It could be like listening to AM radio, not much details, but not irritating either. Anyway, I am not trying to argue your point as I do agree, just clarifying mine.

 

[Ponzio]

Was just wondering if the out crap could become softer and less irritating crap than the in crap.

yes ... u wont have to hold ur nose for too long.

 

[ThrownByBabe]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. Swerd, you nailed it. On listening to more speakers, we did listen to some that were much more forgiving with poor recordings (which for the samples I brought were overly hot and too compressed). To me that means the speakers are not as transparent and are contributing their own color. I will end up buying speakers that add a little warmth to make the old recordings listenable but not too much to my ears. Listening to good speaker is sure fun...

 

[TLS Guy]

I am new to the group and getting into higher-quality audio later in life.

My wife and I are currently auditioning GoldenEar and PSB speakers and definitely hearing what we have been missing. Soundstage width and depth, subtleties in the music we’ve never heard before – the emotional impact of hearing great music on great systems.

We are also - not surprisingly - hearing that some of the poor recordings I purposely brought sound terrible – much worse than on our lesser system at home. I own a lot of great performances which are not recorded well. And I will continue to listen to them, not expecting them to magically sound like great recordings, but to enjoy the musicianship. I don’t want them to sound worse.

My questions is, how do you listen to these inferior recordings at home? Do you use a secondary system (lower end) which is more tolerant? Does tube warmth help?

Thanks for any advice you have.

I'm an old geezer and so have a lot of old recordings, going back about 80 years.

It would be helpful to know what media you have 78, LP mono/stereo, tape etc.

First of all if speakers really make the problem worse then you have probably been listening to bad speakers. Contrary to popular belief, good speakers excel on new and old media.

For LPs, if they are mono, I just listen through the center speaker, this sounds better than dual mono.

Next is that Peter Walker of Quad designed equipment for the real world. This was particularly true in the LP era. His preamps has selectable turnover Low pass filters at 10 KHZ, 7 KHz, and 5 KHz. The slope of the filter is variable

In this review of the Quad 33 you can see can see the effect of the 5 KHZ filter and the effect of the slope control. The marvel of this system is that it allows difficult LPs to be tamed instantly. The alternative is an equalizer, and in difficult cases and especially for archiving, I do use them judiciously. The Quad system also works for tape hiss and tape Eq errors.

Speaking of reel to reel tape, in older material you run into different equalization curves, CCIR and DIN in Europe and NAB here. The Revox A77 series play DIN and NAB. The you have a number of noise reduction codecs, such as Dolby A and B and dbx 1 & 2, to say nothing of differing track formats. The upshot of this is that a number of machines are required to get the best out of reel to reel tapes, if you are in to that.

The next issue is 78 which are difficult if you have them. Different labels used different EQ curves. The old Quad 22 preamp, allows you to select the correct Eq curve for the label.

If you are really into 78s, then you need a variety of heads with different styli radii. In older 78 records, the speed was not standard, with some being 80 rpm or sometimes a bit more. So a turntable with speed adjustment, like a vintage Goldring Lenco, or Garrard 301 fits the bill. The Goldring Lenco is particularly beloved of 78 rpm enthusiasts.

Here are some pictures.

My turntables each have there own Quad preamp which allows for optimal play back of LPs.

This shows my Decca ffss 78 RPM head. You can see the Quad 78 RPM Eq chart for the Quad 22 preamp.

If you have a lot of older LPs, then buying a vintage Quad preamp to connect to your turntable and then connect to your system is a highly recommended and worthwhile investment.

In terms of playing older and not so well cut records, Shure cartridges are unsurpassed. In difficult to track records, they are head and shoulders over anything else. I use the Shure V15 xmr, sadly NLA. However this cartridge from Shure does an excellent job, only cost $89 and is my absolute top recommendation for cartridges under $600 and better then most above that price.

Older media with care and attention can be optimized and in many cases will sound excellent. On the other hand a careless approach generally leads to bad results.

If you have some recordings you would like optimized and mastered, I can do that with my audio workstation which can master CDs to Red Book with its professional software, and I would be happy to do this for you.

 

[KEW]

I have one setup for music and movies/casual and critical listening. It helps appreciate good recordings that much more. Over time I have developed an appreciation for the art in the science of a recording engineer's line of work.

Obviously, the Sierra/Rythmik system (nice) is your critical listening system.
What is your casual system?

 

[herbu]

I own a lot of great performances which are not recorded well.

I think most of us do. I agree w/ Swerd and markw. A good system w/ good speakers will reproduce both the good and the bad. But trying to distort the bad further, to make it sound good, is likely a lost cause.

You know on TV how they take a really poor resolution security recording of a face, run some algorithm and get crisp hi-def detail? It's baloney. And so it is with old poor audio recordings.

In other words, get a good system w/ a good set of speakers. Enjoy the "modern" hi-def-like music, grow your collection, and occasionally reminisce w/ the old stuff.

 

[highfigh]

I think most of us do. I agree w/ Swerd and markw. A good system w/ good speakers will reproduce both the good and the bad. But trying to distort the bad further, to make it sound good, is likely a lost cause.

You know on TV how they take a really poor resolution security recording of a face, run some algorithm and get crisp hi-def detail? It's baloney. And so it is with old poor audio recordings.

In other words, get a good system w/ a good set of speakers. Enjoy the "modern" hi-def-like music, grow your collection, and occasionally reminisce w/ the old stuff.

I agree about assembling a good system- a bad one will never produce the music at its best.

EQ can help- I wouldn't recommend much EQ that uses addition but subtracting the highs does make some bad recordings listenable. Kind of like going from FM to AM- on a good day, an AM station won't have any hiss. It won't have any other high information either, but at least the hiss is gone. Older US and Japanese equipment had a "Hiss Filter", often turning over at 10KHz, to be used any time the noise was excessive. It actually works pretty well and since people were accustomed to the sound of AM, it wasn't as drastic as it would seem now, with our having had the opportunity to hear 20Hz-20KHz for so long. Some people have never heard anything else.

WRT speakers made recently vs in the past, I could understand why someone might have some for more recent music and others for music produced before the CD came out- that seems to be the demarcation point where mainstream speakers started to use better drivers and crossover components. It also coincided with the beginning of more driver info being available. In the late-'70s, Phillips/Amperex had a book with data for their speaker components and the list of parameters was ridiculously small, compared with what we have today. That didn't allow much precision when designing speakers and I think it had a lot to do with the end result. Sure, some of the parameters could be derived from others, but it would never have allowed WinISD, Box Builder (or its predecessor, Term Pro), or any other software to model a speaker system with anything approaching what we can, today.

 

[TLS Guy]

I think most of us do. I agree w/ Swerd and markw. A good system w/ good speakers will reproduce both the good and the bad. But trying to distort the bad further, to make it sound good, is likely a lost cause.

You know on TV how they take a really poor resolution security recording of a face, run some algorithm and get crisp hi-def detail? It's baloney. And so it is with old poor audio recordings.

In other words, get a good system w/ a good set of speakers. Enjoy the "modern" hi-def-like music, grow your collection, and occasionally reminisce w/ the old stuff.

I could not disagree with this post more.

Knowing what the Eq on the recoding was originally and having that curve available is job 1.

For everyday listening the filter/slope controls of the vintage Quad preamps are pretty much a must. I would not play my collection without one. Those controls work wonders quickly and easily with profound improvement. This is why those preamps were so popular in the LP era.

For more intense and profound restorations there are a lot of digital tools within Wave Lab that I use. For difficult situations there is well known, but very expensive professional software available.

I did a restoration if an old recording recently, and with the finished product you would think it was a recent recording.

 

[ThrownByBabe]

After auditioning different speakers:
- GoldenEars Triton 7
- Magnepan 1.7 and .7 - with and without a subwoofer
- PSB - T6 and X2T
- Bowers and Wilkins - 683
- A few $30K and up pairs - because we could

We selected the PSB X2T. It had the best of both worlds for us - sounding great with great recordings, and making lesser recordings sound good as well. I'll be playing them with a laptop sending FLAC to a V90-DAC into either a Denon 3801 or an Outlaw Audio RR2150 (I own these already).

Thanks for the replies to my thread.

TBB

 

[herbu]

I could not disagree with this post more.

TLS Guy, that's fine for somebody whose "turntables each have there own Quad preamp which allows for optimal play back of LPs."

Maybe not so much for somebody who is, "new to the group and getting into higher-quality audio later in life."

 

[3db]

I'm an old geezer and so have a lot of old recordings, going back about 80 years.

It would be helpful to know what media you have 78, LP mono/stereo, tape etc.

First of all if speakers really make the problem worse then you have probably been listening to bad speakers. Contrary to popular belief, good speakers excel on new and old media.

The OP never mentioned new and old media. The OP mentioned poor recordings. Good speakers are transparent and should not make poor recordings sound good. If speakers make poor recordings sound good, then the speakers are coloring the sound and therefore are NOT good speakers.

 

[3db]

I am new to the group and getting into higher-quality audio later in life.

My wife and I are currently auditioning GoldenEar and PSB speakers and definitely hearing what we have been missing. Soundstage width and depth, subtleties in the music we’ve never heard before – the emotional impact of hearing great music on great systems.

We are also - not surprisingly - hearing that some of the poor recordings I purposely brought sound terrible – much worse than on our lesser system at home. I own a lot of great performances which are not recorded well. And I will continue to listen to them, not expecting them to magically sound like great recordings, but to enjoy the musicianship. I don’t want them to sound worse.

My questions is, how do you listen to these inferior recordings at home? Do you use a secondary system (lower end) which is more tolerant? Does tube warmth help?

Thanks for any advice you have.

I own older PSBs and I have run into this issue as well. Like Markw, I accept it for what its worth and now revel in the fact that I'm able to hear the differences between a good and a poor recording.