Beginning the Search For A Real Sub

[cpd]

I am beginning my search for a big boy sub. My speakers are Monitor Audio Radius (270 floor stander fronts, 200 center, and 90 surrounds). I have a tiny Radius 360 (8" 100 w) subwoofer.

I have a large room with cathedral ceilings. The room is basically two adjoining rectangles although they are offset a bit. The listening/viewing area is 18' x 15' and the sitting/fireplace area is 19' x 10'. They adjoin on the long dimension on each rectangle with an offset of about 3 feet. The areas are completely open to each other. I hope that makes sense. I have tried to locate a sketch program online that I don't have to sign up and pay for but could not.

Anyway, my rough calculations put the total room volume at approximately 4,785 cubic feet. The listening/viewing space is approximately 2,790 cubic feet but, as I said, it is really one big room separated only in furniture placement into a media area and a sitting area. The main seating distance from the TV and speakers is approximately 13 feet. The room is carpeted.

Based on total family use I would say that the system is used 80% TV/movies and 20% music. The system is mostly for my benefit, however, and my use is closer to 60/40.

I have been looking mainly at ID brands (HSU, SVS, etc.). I am ending up with more questions than answers, however, so I thought I would turn here for recommendations. I am looking for one sub (both for budgetary reasons and WAF).

Apart from general recommendations some questions I have are:

1) What are the important specs to pay attention to and how do I make sense of what the graphs and charts are telling me?
2) How is the general quality of HSU and can someone give me a thumbnail sketch of the differences in models?
3) Same questions for SVS - but in addition, what explains the increased price compared to HSU?

I am sure I will have more based on any responses I may get. As always, thanks for the input.

 

[TheWarrior]

I've heard a lot of book shelf speakers in a similar, yet slightly larger open floor plan.

I strongly recommend the best sealed sub you can buy. The tight accuracy will complement the bookshelves better. And they conveniently, will be the smallest of your options; WAF.

Between the many excellent ID brands, pick which ever one takes your eye. They are all just that, excellent. Perhaps one will have a sale going that suits your needs.

Beyond price, I would really consider taking advantage of ID return policies, and go ahead and buy two right away. It is impossible for a single sub to give balanced response across that big of a space. Each seat will sound different. So if you get it in right away (maybe unannounced and prove what it can do, and suggest more romantic nights at home where you do the cooking, it could be a win! Or you'll be able to send it back (I don't think they all pay return shipping).

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Without knowing your budget it's hard to recommend specific sub, but based on almost 5k cuft room volume you're dangerously close to AH Extreme rooms sub rating
http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/subwoofer-room-size

I don't know any sealed subs under $1k which come close filling your room. The myth of accuracy of sealed subs only is easily disproved by proper vented design, not mentioned the later is much more efficient and able to play lower - which what you'd want for movies

HSU VTF3-MK5 is great value and very versatile sub and should be able pressurize your room

 

[ratm]

Without an actual budget (with a hard ceiling), it is a tad difficult for people to recommend a specific sub. Warrior is absolutely right about picking something that catches your eye. There are several ID subs that will accomodate both the WAF and budget. As far as quality, I have yet to read a poor review on the quality of either HSU or SVS subs. Both seem to be rock solid in all aspects, performance, price, quality and in the case of the SVS PB13 Ultra, a thing of beauty. One area that I will disagree with Warrior is his comment about sealed subs. I LOVE my JTR Cap 2400, and would not ever think of going sealed again. Def a case of to each his own.

 

[shadyJ]

1) What are the important specs to pay attention to and how do I make sense of what the graphs and charts are telling me?
2) How is the general quality of HSU and can someone give me a thumbnail sketch of the differences in models?
3) Same questions for SVS - but in addition, what explains the increased price compared to HSU?

To answer your question in order:
I wouldn't pay too close attention to specs. Specs can be exaggerated in a number of ways. I would be looking at third party measurements. Here is a page that will tell you about the meaning of various subwoofer metrics to look at. By far the best website to compare measured subwoofer performance is data-bass.com.

As for Hsu's line-up, the STF2 and VTF1 are meant for small rooms, they are not output monsters but they are very linear performers for the price. The VTF2 can handle a medium size room, but the Hsu subs take a huge performance leap at the VTF3 and VTF15h. I would try to get at least a VTF3 from Hsu, amazing sub for the price

As for SVS, the 1000 series is intended for small rooms, the 2000 series for medium size rooms, and the Plus and Ultra subs for larger rooms.

If you want the highest performance for the dollar, go with Hsu. SVS subs are good, but they don't have the price/performance ratio of Hsu. The VTF3 mk5 and VTF15h mk2 are especially high performers for the dollar. Based on existing CEA measurements, I would expect the VTF15h mk2 to outperform the PB13 Ultra at all frequencies except for maybe 16 and 20 Hz, but you can get two VTF15h mk2s for slightly less than one PB13 Ultra.

In that room, go ported. You will get no room gain from a sealed sub, and so you will have very limited deep bass from a sealed sub. I would only go sealed if you can afford something above $2k, and preferably closer to $3k. Those sealed subs begin to have displacement to produce solid deep bass even without assistance from room acoustics.

 

[cpd]

Thanks for the advice. It's not necessarily a matter of budget, more so one of timing. Still, what is the benefit of the PB 13 ultra, considering it is twice the price? The data-bass measurements seem to show that the 15h (not even the mk2) has more output even at 16hz and 20hz (if I understand what I am reading).

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

look at PB13-ultra at 20hz vs VTF-15H MK1 (2 ports open) CEA-2010 Max Burst (first graph)
, at 20hz PB13 Ultra has 6db advantage, however MK2 has +3db over mkl, so the difference of 3db is not large at all.
About same picture at 15hz mode - 5db, which likely much less with mk2

Read more about Josh's test procedure here in much details:
http://www.data-bass.com/know-how

 

[shadyJ]

Thanks for the advice. It's not necessarily a matter of budget, more so one of timing. Still, what is the benefit of the PB 13 ultra, considering it is twice the price? The data-bass measurements seem to show that the 15h (not even the mk2) has more output even at 16hz and 20hz (if I understand what I am reading).

The benefit of owning a PB13 is the nicer gloss black finish, longer standard warranty on amp (although you can purchase an extended warranty for the Hsu amps), and it will have a bit more output at 15 and maybe 20 Hz, depending on what mode you are comparing them in.

If money is not an issue, and you want to get absolutely the most performance for the size, I would be looking at a Deep Sea Sound Mariana 24. That thing is stunning. If money really is not a factor, get the Funk 18.2. Either one of those would vastly outperform anything from Hsu or SVS.

 

[rojo]

There's also the PSA V3600i to consider. See the predicted output specs. Since apparently you *just* missed the cutoff for the preorder discount, you could chat with Tom V. on the site and see whether he can offer any sort of bargain.

Also, not sure what these cost, but since wife acceptance factor is a consideration, you might consider a sub you can hide under the couch. Have a look at the Danley THSPUD folded horn.

 

[herbu]

My "room" is similar to yours... odd shaped, cathedral ceiling. I have 2 subs. Each is a BEAST, and capable of chest thumping pressures in the room. However, due to the odd shape of the room, one sub cannot provide equal response at every seat. I can position it so the bass really thumps at my seat, but is quite subdued 5 feet away at my wife's seat.

Adding the second sub didn't add to the volume or thumps, but did let me even them out so each set heard and felt the same thing.

My subs are a Rythmik FV15HP and an SVS PB13U. I can recommend either, and highly recommend both.

 

[cpd]

I wouldn't say budget is not an issue, but I would save for an extra $1000 if it meant a noticeable increase in performance. I think I will look more closely at the comparison of the mk5, 15h mk2, and pb 13 ultra.

 

[elwaylite]

I just swapped one of my dual VTF15 mk1's for a FV15HP and the output gain was real, as well as the power below 20hz. The second FV15HP is arriving today and the VTF15MK1 is getting sold. I was close to getting MK2's but the Rythmik really is a great performer for that price. I spent a ton of time reading data-bass results. You also get a nice discount as a repeat customer to Rythmik and their Cust Serv has been great answering my questions.

Subs are well built, driver is beefy and the amp controls are vast. I wanted a JTR cap 1400 but it pushed budget too far for duals. And to be honest, considering I was able to get dual FV15HP's for $2700, the price of a PB13 Ultra priced themselves out.

 

[agarwalro]

I was just about to suggest the JTR Captivator 1400.

 

[elwaylite]

It was my favorite. Gobs of power and digs low. My only complaint about the Hsu is they are designed more towards mid bass. Granted the newer model has a better driver and more power, but i want that sub20hz kick too and the FV15HP has it. The 1400 is a beast.

All of them are good, it more factors in budget and need. My need of wanting more kick below 25hz drove me toward the 1400 and FV15HP. To be honest, if I was spending $2000 on one, itd be the 1400 over a PB13 but thats me.

 

[Steve81]

To offer a couple cents into this discussion, before we start talking about Captivators and the like, it's helpful to consider the OP's speakers. The Radius 270 tower with its pair of 4" woofers isn't exactly an output monster, and I'd daresay it'd have a hard time keeping up with the Hsu VTF 3.5HP, let alone something like the Cap. Unless there are plans to upgrade the rest of the system, IMO you might as well save a few bucks and run with the VTF 3.5HP or VTF15.2.

 

[fuzz092888]

To offer a couple cents into this discussion, before we start talking about Captivators and the like, it's helpful to consider the OP's speakers. The Radius 270 tower with its pair of 4" woofers isn't exactly an output monster, and I'd daresay it'd have a hard time keeping up with the Hsu VTF 3.5HP, let alone something like the Cap. Unless there are plans to upgrade the rest of the system, I'd daresay you might as well save a few bucks and run with the VTF 3.5HP or VTF15.2.

I tried to read this, but all I got out of it was that you said "daresay" in consecutive sentences. I then spent the next 10 mins saying "daresay" in a variety of accents. I think I've wandered into the wrong thread.........

 

[Steve81]

I tried to read this, but all I got out of it was that you said "daresay" in consecutive sentences. I then spent the next 10 mins saying "daresay" in a variety of accents. I think I've wandered into the wrong thread.........

I daresay I better edit my post

 

[cpd]

To offer a couple cents into this discussion, before we start talking about Captivators and the like, it's helpful to consider the OP's speakers. The Radius 270 tower with its pair of 4" woofers isn't exactly an output monster, and I'd daresay it'd have a hard time keeping up with the Hsu VTF 3.5HP, let alone something like the Cap. Unless there are plans to upgrade the rest of the system, IMO you might as well save a few bucks and run with the VTF 3.5HP or VTF15.2.

There are always plans to upgrade. My thought was to upgrade the low end first, since my current set up is terribly lacking in that area.

The next step being speakers at some point in the future. To that end I have had my eyes on Sierra Towers or something around that price point, although I'm not sure that will be a near term endeavor. After that, it is time to replace my 2005 AVR and probably my TV stand to fit the larger center channel.

I guess I only presumed that to be the right path forward. Would you all suggest otherwise?

Still, I am a bang for the buck kind of person. If I can get 90% of the performance for 50% of the price, that is pretty appealing to me.

 

[elwaylite]

I'd upgrade the sub first if the plans are to do the towers. One thing I learned with my audio path is buy the good stuff once, and rarely can you buy it all at once.

 

[fuzz092888]

I'd upgrade the sub first if the plans are to do the towers. One thing I learned with my audio path is buy the good stuff once, and rarely can you buy it all at once.

I disagree. I'd upgrade the mains first, worry about the subs later. Spend the $2K on the Sierra towers, if that's the choice, and then add subs to taste. The Sierra towers will extend down to 41Hz, and a touch deeper in room and do it with some authority. IMO, increasing the performance of 60/80Hz to 20,000Hz is a lot more important than that bottom couple octaves, and this coming from a guy with a couple subs.

I'm all for the bass, but first things first.