Center Channel issue in new home build

[chrisdalebrown]

Long time lurker, first time poster. Me and my wife are having a house built. It's a open floor plan downstairs. Kitchen, dining, living rooms with no walls in between. Living room is 16'4" x 20'. My TV will be above the fireplace. No room for center speaker above or below. We have a dilemma with the builder when it comes to the center channel.

The only options I have for a 5.1 surround is to go in ceiling for all 5. I paid for the surround sound prewire which gives me 5 ceiling speaker prewires and a subwoofer. The problem lies in the fact that the framing failed inspection, and the builder had to add a lot of joists to pass inspection and now I cannot put a center channel in the ceiling (unless the builder agrees to install a header in the joists to allow me to install a center channel which they have yet to agree to)

I have found 4 possible center channels for the ceiling (if they install header I will choose one of these):
Triad Bronze 8LCR, Revel C763L, Def Tech UIW RCS II, JBL LS360C (Leaning towards the Revel)

If they will not install a header for my only options are to have either the center speaker in the ceiling but well off center of fireplace(which we don't want) or 2 vertical speakers beside the TV that would mess up the 5.1 setup. (which we don't want).

Me and wife only wants ceiling speakers for aesthetic and acoustic reasons (1 ceiling center channel with a 5.1 setup is better than 2 front speakers beside TV for a 4.1 setup IMO) and builder doesn't want to pay to install header. What would be your solution if you had this issue?

First pic is our floor plan. Second is the joists installed where center speaker needs to be.

 

[herbu]

The problem lies in the fact that the framing failed inspection, and the builder had to add a lot of joists to pass inspection and now I cannot put a center channel in the ceiling (unless the builder agrees to install a header in the joists to allow me to install a center channel which they have yet to agree to)

What would be your solution if you had this issue?

It sounds like you gave the requirements to the builder before he started. Then his solution failed to pass inspection. I don't think I would accept his position that I pay for a correction. So pushing back on the builder would be my first approach.

Plan B would be to pay for the header yourself. Divide the cost by the number of hours you expect to watch TV/movies throughout your time in the house. I suspect it will be worth it.

Plan C would be to simply get some good Left/Right speakers, and let them provide your phantom Center. I can tell you that with good speakers, it is not a bad situation. Even with your in-ceiling Center, you may find that good Left/Rights exceed the quality of an in-ceiling.

 

[fuzz092888]

I agree with herbu.

How is there not room above or below the TV? Even an 80", placed properly, should leave enough room above for a center in-wall speaker with 7ft ceilings.

Just out of curiosity, what acoustic reasons?

FWIW, if they're in ceiling anyways, you're better off moving those rear speakers forward to side surround speakers. There are few to no movie recordings in 5.1 that use rears instead of sides.

 

[rojo]

My TV will be above the fireplace. No room for center speaker above or below.

Anything's possible, given enough beer.

 

[macddmac]

I would mount a soundbar type type center to the bottom of the tv. An in ceiling center with dialog coming from that high will never sound right and I doubt that you will get a phantom center image out of the left and right as installed.
How far back will you be sitting from the speakers?
Cheers, Mac

 

[chrisdalebrown]

Thanks for all the quick replies. It's tough to quote and reply on a phone..

Herbu: That's exactly what I'm in the middle of. I've told them that's how I want it but they're trying to avoid it. It's a cookie cutter style neighborhood that's all about money and a quick turnover. In option C, are you talking about left and right speakers in the wall or in the ceiling?

Fuzz: I have measured from the top of the mantle and meSured my potential 65" TV hat will go there and there's less than 4 inches available under the TV. And acoustically I was speaking of 5.1 in ceiling would be better than a 4.1 in wall with no center speaker.

Macddmac: The main viewing spot will most likely be 10-12' back and the ceilings are 9ft

 

[markw]

Let's hope that's only a decorative fireplace and not a real one. Heat from the fireplace is not good for the TV.

 

[fuzz092888]

Thanks for all the quick replies. It's tough to quote and reply on a phone..

Herbu: That's exactly what I'm in the middle of. I've told them that's how I want it but they're trying to avoid it. It's a cookie cutter style neighborhood that's all about money and a quick turnover. In option C, are you talking about left and right speakers in the wall or in the ceiling?

He's talking about floor standing L/R towers or bookshelves if I'm reading that correctly. Although possibly in-wall. Generally speaking you want to avoid ceiling speakers for your front soundstage at all costs.

Fuzz: I have measured from the top of the mantle and meSured my potential 65" TV hat will go there and there's less than 4 inches available under the TV. And acoustically I was speaking of 5.1 in ceiling would be better than a 4.1 in wall with no center speaker.

I missed that part about it being over a fireplace. I can tell you right now that if you plan on using that fire place, you'll likely cook your TV or at least severly shorten the life span of the panel with it like that, in addition to it being at a viewing angle that is less than idea. Plus any other electronics will have their life shortened by it being over the fireplace depending on how much you use it.

I disagree. I'd rather have some really good in wall speakers with a phantom center than the in ceiling. The front soundstage will never sound correct with only ceiling speakers and the imaging will be awful. IOW, voices and noises will always be coming from above your head instead of being centered on the screen and panning left to right. Surround speakers are a little more forgivable, but still less than ideal. A great pair of in wall speakers can still get you decent imaging and properly centered voices.

Macddmac: The main viewing spot will most likely be 10-12' back and the ceilings are 9ft

That's a big space and reasonably high ceilings further exacerbating the sounds being in odd places above your head. It would drive me wild, YMMV.

 

[agarwalro]

And acoustically I was speaking of 5.1 in ceiling would be better than a 4.1 in wall with no center speaker.

The 4.1 in-wall will be better.

 

[chrisdalebrown]

Alright. You guys have convinced me on the 4.1 system. I may have a harder time convincing my wife.

At one point the 4.1 was a huge possibility so I was researching speakers. My new dilemma if I do that is that there are windows on each side of the fireplace which requires 2 studs that bring my stud bay for in wall speakers to 7". I have found a few speakers that I like(Revel W553L, Klipsch R-2502-W-II, and Def Tech 5.5 LCR) but they are in the 6.2-6.4" cutout dimensions which won't leave enough room to clamp to drywall. I know I'll have less options, but my requirements would be a 6" or less cutout width and no bezel. (Like the ones mentioned above)

 

[fuzz092888]

I believe you can ditch the bezel and the cutout is exactly 6" according to spec for these two models. One of the members here is also an RBH dealer so he can probably cut you a deal on them as well.

https://rbhsound.com/a414.php

https://rbhsound.com/mc414.php

 

[markw]

Is there any reason you can't use towers or even small bookshelves mounted on standoffs from the wall?

 

[chrisdalebrown]

I believe you can ditch the bezel and the cutout is exactly 6" according to spec for these two models. One of the members here is also an RBH dealer so he can probably cut you a deal on them as well.

Thanks for those. Is there a way to install in wall speakers without using the dog legs? Or be able to just use the ones on the top and bottom of drywall instead of on the sides?

 

[chrisdalebrown]

Is there any reason you can't use towers or even small bookshelves mounted on standoffs from the wall?

I wouldn't mind towers, but I'm thinking what's best aesthetically to keep the wife happy. I've talked her into the 2 wall speakers. Might be even tougher to get 2 towers..


Also, I have found quite a few Speakercraft selections that have 4 3/4" cutout (AIM LCR). How do those stack up with the competition?

 

[herbu]

In option C, are you talking about left and right speakers in the wall or in the ceiling?

I wouldn't mind towers, but I'm thinking what's best aesthetically to keep the wife happy. I've talked her into the 2 wall speakers. Might be even tougher to get 2 towers

Chris, make the effort. Go for towers. Your choices open up immensely, and future upgrades become an option.

Show her some pictures of beautiful towers, like at salksound.com. Show her some extremely reasonably priced Slims or Affordable Accuracy towers at Philharmonicaudio.com. Explain the limited selection and additional cost of any repairs or upgrades w/ in-wall and in-ceiling speakers. Offer her some trade for the towers... "Honey, if you agree to towers, I'll agree to XYZ you've been talking about". Do not relent. Get The Tower Agreement!

Get that concession NOW, and you can have the most satisfying audio experience and hobby for the rest of your life. Don't get that concession, and learn to enjoy fishing, golf, reading and other various activities. Your HT experience will be limited forever.

 

[fuzz092888]

Thanks for those. Is there a way to install in wall speakers without using the dog legs? Or be able to just use the ones on the top and bottom of drywall instead of on the sides?

I believe the RBH also come with a pinch bracket for a tight fit between two studs, although I'm not 100% sure how that works.

 

[chrisdalebrown]

What do you guys think of the Def Tech UIW RLS III? They have a 5 7/8" cutout which would be even better.

 

[markw]

This might sound cold but, although it's been hinted at, it should be said outright.

Don't expect massive differences from any of those tiny in-wall speakers you're looking at. If you've heard other HT systems, odds are you're going to be disappointed with the results of any of them.

You need to expand your options for any real improvement.

 

[darien87]

View attachment 16120 View attachment 16121 What would be your solution if you had this issue?

Get a new wife.

 

[lsiberian]

I'd put that TV on the other wall. It has the added bonus of having dining room visibility for super bowl parties.