my first thread. loud, deep, crisp, clear, adjustable

[pictureBigger]

hi everyone. i'm as newbie as it gets. i appreciate in advance any and all advise. forgive me if this question has been asked 6000 times already. if so, please link me to the similar discussion.

i work from home, my home office is ~20ft x ~15ft square. i want to build an amazing sound system. i like it loud but only if it's still crisp and clear. i plan to soundproof the room (as best i can) but only for the sanity of my family. the neighbors.. well they'll just have to deal with it.

i purchased a Numark NS6 turntable about 1yr ago. i never use it for mixing, i don't have the time. but it did introduce me to how much better my audio could sound. its output are 2 Numark monitors via auxiliary outs, they sounded great but now basically blown. the Numark is basically the most expensive MP3 player on the planet to me. I don't practice mixing with it, but I do still use it daily for the audio quality while I work. I just pipe music via my laptop USB out to it, so still money well spent, but now that the monitors have spoiled me rotten to the point they aren't good enough, I'm really interested in building a badass system of my own now.

I'm certainly a small fry, I'm not interested in any $10k setup yet. baby steps. right now, even if i could afford it i probably wouldn't be interested. i'd rather learn as i go and improve as i learn. i don't need a Lexus right now, I'd rather put a supercharger on the Toyota.

I don't even know good brands/makes/models/etc. I'm clueless here. All I do know is I want a system I can crank but still adjust in finite amounts. speakers that can handle the load on a good song and won't burst in <6 months, and without a doubt an equalizer I can make tiny adjustments on the fly for every track i'm playing.

where do i even begin? it's a small room. the Numark deck and monitors aren't required. i mainly just want to pipe music from my laptop (or other media) through an equalizer i can adjust on the fly for any song, out to a couple of badass monitors, or maybe even separate it entirely where i have a couple of highs, mids, and lows just like a car audio system? maybe one subwoofer but nothing bezzerk. i don't need the windows and dishes to rattle. my main interest is crystal clear and crisp audio, mids and highs, but something i can still crank up 5x louder than normal here and there when a damn good song comes on. but i don't want it loud where everything is raspy and annoying. i want it clear and crisp first, loud and deep second. but both are equally important.

how do i even begin? any tips for a regular ol' middle class setup that will still make me moist in the loins? thinking maybe a $1000 budget for starters, ideal if even less. $1500 would be absolute max, and even that is unlikely. maybe the end goal is several thousand bucks but for starters, low hanging fruit, less than $1k for something spectacular would be sweet.

thanks again in advance, sorry if i'm the 6000th person to ask. again, please link me to any discussion similar to my request. i appreciate everyone's input. i'm as greenhorn as it gets right now. but i definitely look forward to learning the science and seriously building on this new hobby i'm starting as i type this.

looking forward to meeting you all.

thx,
-dan

 

[rojo]

Goodness. Well, first of all, welcome! Next, pull up a seat. It's time for school.

What you have in mind for EQ is, well, horrible. EQ is not meant for tuning your system for a particular song or genre. Let the studio engineers worry about that, unless you reckon you know better than they what a song is supposed to sound like. No, EQ is for correcting room response. So-called rock, pop, jazz, etc. EQ curves are toys meant for kids who like to poke things and fiddle with gadgets. You're ready for something more grown up now.

A pair of speakers will sound differently from room to room, and even with different placement within the same room. This is due to sound waves at some frequencies crashing into each other, cancelling each other out; while waves at other frequencies are focused and boosted by boundary gain. (That's why putting a subwoofer in the corner makes it louder.) EQ exists to flatten things back out at your listening position.

If you want something gadgety without investing a lot of money, then buy this calibrated measurement mic, this TRRS extension cable, and this smartphone headset to pc adapter to break the four-conductor TRRS line into a more standard three-conductor TRS plug you can shove into your laptop's sound card. You'll also need just a basic short 3.5mm TRS cable to use as a loopback temporarily so you can calibrate your sound card. (Plug line in into line out, measure.)

Or if you want something much simpler, you could just get a USB measurement mic.

Either way, use the freeware Room EQ Wizard to perform the measurements, calculate a *correct* EQ curve, then export the EQ filters into the other freeware Equalizer APO.

Voila! EQ the way EQ was meant to be implemented.

It won't help your turntable, but your laptop will sound better than ever. To do the laptop and turntable at the same time, your best bet would be to use a home theater receiver with room correction built-in, such as Audyssey in a Denon or Marantz receiver, YPAO in a Yamaha receiver, or MCACC in a Pioneer. Then the correction would be handled by the AVR, rather than the laptop.

Now, $1000 isn't too bad a budget for a 2.1 + receiver setup. I recommend a pair of WaveCrest Audio HVL-1 bookshelfs, a Denon AVR-X1000 receiver, and a Rythmik LV12R subwoofer. That is a superlative combo capable of some satisfying output while maintaining excellent composure. Eventually, you might want to upgrade that AVR to something with a little more headroom; but the bulk of your budget should always be devoted to speakers. They're where the sound comes from, after all.

 

[ski2xblack]

There must be some equivalent to Hoffman's Iron Law concerning this. Loud, high quality playback, cheap: you can have two at the expense of the remaining one. Kinda sorta. Loud and high quality playback typically costs some ducats. Fortunately, your room isn't that big, so I don't think you need to go to extremes (as in the fully active PA style rig you describe in your post).

Agree w/ Rojo, the bulk of your budget should go toward speakers.

Disagree w/ the rec to avoid the use of eq. If you have source material which you would like to remaster, I recommend Audacity (you can apply the handy "clip-fix" utility, apply eq to taste, restore some bass and dynamics...) and save the file in fixed form. I'm not a fan of the room correction as performed by Audyssey or other automagic methods; good speakers, bass traps, and minimal room eq on top of that at my house. I also frequently apply eq for loudness compensation at different volumes. Eq is just a tool to use, and it has it's benefits if used correctly, as well as presenting the opportunity to commit lots of mistakes.

Back to the 'loud, high quality, cheap' situation, you'll find some of the better values at your local Guitar Center or similar type store. Some of the studio monitors bring a nice combo of quality sound, higher dynamic range than consumer speakers, and price. I'm partial to the JBL lsr series, and the lsr 308 have been buy one get one half off lately. If you want to explore the 'loud' stuff, a select few PA monitors may be worth a listen. Get ears on some things and let us know what your impressions are, as that will help us make more appropriate suggestions.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

my old pair of lsr2325p's can play at 112db at 1m (3 ft) - see below for point of reference if you're not familiar with db scale:

Keep in mind that prolonged espouse to sound levels over 85db is damaging to your ears

 

[zieglj01]

Event 20/20 BAS - sold each
http://www.amazon.com/Event-20-20BAS-Monitor/dp/B00GXNZIIM/ref=sr_1_2?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1433009217&sr=1-2&keywords=Event+20/20+BAS

And remember this from post #4
Keep in mind that prolonged espouse to sound levels over 85db is damaging to your ears

 

[pictureBigger]

wow! thanks A LOT everyone. i'll research all of this info.

do all software EQ's require audio files? what about online streaming music? any software EQ's tune it at the soundcard output, or would i require hardware EQ?

seems hardware EQ would be fun, have it sitting in front of me to fine tune subtle parts of each song. i like to tune each, even mid-song tuning. with only bass/treble/gain i can only find a neutral sweet spot for everything, otherwise one song sounds great and the next sounds awful.

 

[shadyJ]

pictureBigger, given your criteria, I would get a good audio interface for your computer, a couple studio monitors, a Hsu or Rythmik subwoofer, and the Dirac Live two channel software suite.

Since it appears you are using only a single source, your computer, you will not need a pre-amp or mixer or anything like. Just run the signal straight to a couple of powered monitors. You will want a good, low-noise audio interface to output the signal, but those are not expensive, I might look at this guy for his balanced outputs and low price, but there are a wide range of audio interfaces for computers. You can get also get more home-audio oriented DACs like this guy, but it is more expensive for the bells and whistles.

For the monitors, I would get something that is accurate and neutral. I would be looking at JBL LSRs or Mackie MRs, preferably with the 8" woofers, so the MR8 and the 308 would be my suggestion. If you can spend more and want something extremely accurate and with greater dynamic range, look at the Mackie HR8 or Emotiva Stealth 8. That HR8 monitor is THX pm3 certified, which means you can use it to create THX sound mixes. That is a very high standard of performance. The sound quality from those speakers will be very good. Given their emphasis on neutrality, I think studio monitors generally present a higher value for sound quality than passive home audio speakers, but there are exceptions.

For the subwoofer, I would be looking at the Hsu or Rythmik subs. Both go very deep with low distortion, both are adjustable, and both give you very crisp, high quality bass.

If you want good, affordable equalization, I would get a MiniDSP 2x4 with a Umik mic. When you want a step up, get the Dirac Live two channel suite for your laptop. You can also get a Dirac box with Umik mic package from miniDSP.

 

[pictureBigger]

i just bought this (forum won't allow me to link it since i'm so new):

DBX 215s Dual Channel 15-Band Equalizer

$136. amazon prime, so i can easily return it if it sucks. you guys familiar? any thoughts?

dunno, just really liking the idea of a physical EQ box right in front of my keyboard while i work. tweak things all day with minimal effort. just thinking more about it, fighting with a software EQ on my personal music laptop beside me, while i work all day on my Corp-issued laptop, would drive me bonkers.

is it a mistake? don't hold back. i can handle the truth. i just couldn't wait. had to order SOMETHING. lol a lump of coal, i hope not.

-d

 

[pictureBigger]

pictureBigger, given your criteria, I would get a good audio interface for your computer, a couple studio monitors, a Hsu or Rythmik subwoofer, and the Dirac Live two channel software suite.

Since it appears you are using only a single source, your computer, you will not need a pre-amp or mixer or anything like. Just run the signal straight to a couple of powered monitors. You will want a good, low-noise audio interface to output the signal, but those are not expensive, I might look at this guy for his balanced outputs and low price, but there are a wide range of audio interfaces for computers. You can get also get more home-audio oriented DACs like this guy, but it is more expensive for the bells and whistles.

For the monitors, I would get something that is accurate and neutral. I would be looking at JBL LSRs or Mackie MRs, preferably with the 8" woofers, so the MR8 and the 308 would be my suggestion. If you can spend more and want something extremely accurate and with greater dynamic range, look at the Mackie HR8 or Emotiva Stealth 8. That HR8 monitor is THX pm3 certified, which means you can use it to create THX sound mixes. That is a very high standard of performance. The sound quality from those speakers will be very good. Given their emphasis on neutrality, I think studio monitors generally present a higher value for sound quality than passive home audio speakers, but there are exceptions.

For the subwoofer, I would be looking at the Hsu or Rythmik subs. Both go very deep with low distortion, both are adjustable, and both give you very crisp, high quality bass.

If you want good, affordable equalization, I would get a MiniDSP 2x4 with a Umik mic. When you want a step up, get the Dirac Live two channel suite for your laptop. You can also get a Dirac box with Umik mic package from miniDSP.

thanks a lot Shady. that makes perfect sense. purchasing new monitors next. i'm definitely not interested in home audio speakers ever since i heard the difference in my Numark monitors vs. my Pioneer surround sound (living room). night and day difference to me. i plan to spend a gob on them though, so i'm not as quick to pull the trigger on them yet like i just did this EQ interface (that i may end up returning? lol we'll see)

thx again
-dan

 

[shadyJ]

You realize that you will need a setup that can handle balanced inputs and outputs in order to use that EQ? Not a problem if you go a more pro-audio oriented route like I suggested, but that might not play well with entry level consumer gear.

If you get a audio interface with a good software suite, you can get a parametric equalizer that would be a lot more powerful than that DBX equalizer. I know that the MOTU audio interfaces have that kind of thing.

If you use winamp to listen to tunes, you can also just use Nevi's EQ plugin, which is also a much more powerful equalizer than the DBX thing, Nevi's is a 250+ band equalizer with way more dynamic range, and it's free!

Don't get me wrong, I like physical hardware with sliders and knobs, but I would cancel that order and look at software EQs before getting a hardware EQ. Use the saved money for another component, where it will make a bigger difference.

 

[pictureBigger]

[sigh] i have so much to learn. order cancelled. you're right again, knobs and sliders are convenient but clearly best for maybe later on when i actually understand what the heck i'm doing. i appreciate that. mental slap in the face and you spared my wallet to apply to other more beneficial components.

you caught my attention with "spend a little more" for "extremely accurate". starting to reconsider my budget. if i want an amazing setup i'd only be screwing myself investing in an excellent setup that's almost amazing.

jeez.. my wife is going to kill me. lmao!

i need to think and read. i'll be back very soon.

thanks again everyone. invaluable help.

-d

 

[shadyJ]

my old pair of lsr2325p's can play at 112db at 1m (3 ft) - see below for point of reference if you're not familiar with db scale:


Keep in mind that prolonged espouse to sound levels over 85db is damaging to your ears

Keep in mind it takes 8 hours of exposure for 85 dB to damage your hearing. You can rock a tune pretty loud for a bit and not have to worry. Rock an entire album though, you might need to exercise some caution...Here is a good page for permissible exposure times.

 

[herbu]

i want to build an amazing sound system.

I just pipe music via my laptop USB

I don't even know good brands/makes/models/etc.

I want a system I can crank... speakers that can handle the load on a good song and won't burst in <6 months, and without a doubt an equalizer I can make tiny adjustments on the fly for every track i'm playing.

less than $1k for something spectacular would be sweet.

i like to tune each, even mid-song tuning.

with only bass/treble/gain i can only find a neutral sweet spot for everything, otherwise one song sounds great and the next sounds awful.

i'm definitely not interested in home audio speakers... i plan to spend a gob on them though

pictureBigger, I fear the single biggest landmine might be your enthusiasm. You are wise to come here BEFORE spending your money, and I urge you to focus on research for a while. Some of the comments above lead me to think it will save you money and regret.

Your predilection for studio equipment makes me wonder if you have ever heard a good home theater system. "Definitely not interested in home audio speakers" tells me you have not. Want great music but bass is not as important as mids and highs? Having to fiddle with an equalizer to find "a neutral sweet spot" for each song separately, leads me to the same conclusion. And all your computer music is in some lossless format, right?

Sorry to be kind of brutal here, but you asked for the truth and said you could take it. The truth is that $1-1.5k is not going to buy a system that will make anyone here, "moist in the loins", but it can put together a system that blows away the average big box store system. BUT you have to listen to what people here tell you.

You have to learn the difference between accurate sound and some distortion you may prefer. You may be amazed how much "detail" becomes apparent in a good system, with good home audio speakers, and without artificial enhancement by some equalizer.

It may take quite a bit of discipline to postpone buying anything for a while, but I guarantee it will pay of in the end... and you will be much more knowledgeable about why.

 

[pictureBigger]

touche'. i agree. the brutally honest was fine. i took it. thanks for it. and i did snap out of it. i cancelled that EQ order immediately, and i admitted i just need to take a step back and read and learn (A LOT) first. an excellent system is only awesome if i fully appreciate it, which requires i fully understand it. what do i have and why do i have it. i get it.

i think step 1 is i should just stfu and start combing through this forum and begin to wrap my head around everything. see all the good vs. great, bad vs. horrible stories. then ask questions. seems there's no 1 size fits all in this, and obviously the $$$$ for great components begs that i first know wtf i'm buying, and why, before swiping the card. arrg.

home stereo vs. monitors is my first target. but before i ask i'll search. i can't possibly be the first to ask that one?

thx
-d

 

[shadyJ]

If you want a huge leap forward in understanding sound system and the sound quality thereof, the book to read is Floyd Toole's Sound Reproduction: Loudspeakers and Rooms. It's long and loaded with information, but it's not too dense on jargon and mathematics, so it is accessible. If you carefully read that, you will be the one answering questions instead of asking them! Audioholics also has a ton of great and enlightening articles to help you, and for you I would recommend sifting though the loudspeaker design articles and room acoustics articles.

As for home audio speakers vs studio monitors, the differences tend to be generalities. One difference is that modern studio monitors tend to be self-powered, so there is no need to buy an external amplifier, although there are some monitors that are passive (one of the best monitors, the JBL LSR6332, is passive). Another difference is monitors tend to be more neutrally voiced than home audio speakers. Home audio speakers can do things like accentuate the treble, or the bass, or the mids. This is basically a distortion. Not all monitors are completely neutral and not all home audio speakers are 'voiced'. A great example of an extremely accurate home audio speaker is the KEF LS50. Another difference is home audio speakers tend to have higher WAF finishes which does increase the price, whereas studio monitors will usually be flat black, as aesthetics are not a high priority in a recording studio.

A great sound system can be made from either home audio or pro-audio. The reason why I recommend studio monitors for you is that you have a single source, your laptop, so you don't need a lot of connectivity, and you are only listening to two channel music. Thus an AVR can be bypassed completely with little loss. That will save money and greatly simplify your system. Speakers will have the biggest impact on sound quality (subs count as speakers), and that is where most of your money should be spent for a great sound system, unless the room is acoustically terrible, in which case acoustic treatments will be needed.