Uh oh did I just buy the wrong receiver?

ATLAudio

ATLAudio

Senior Audioholic
You may be right, but Klipsch's specs say: " POWER HANDLING: 125W RMS / 500W Peak "
The term RMS power is technically wrong, it should be average power, but it has been stated like that so frequently so it has sort of become an acceptable mistake/misnomer.:D.

Since Klipsch did not specify 125W for what duration, we have no idea what they meant by 125W RMS. For amplifiers, manufacturers often use the term "continuous" to mean for X minutes and what X is, would depend on the standards they referred to. So even in those cases where they do say "continuous", we still can't read into it too much. For speakers, it is worse as they tend to be more vague about this more often than not.



They rarely provide the efficiency specs, but the sensitivity specs are useful to a point. One has to read this spec carefully too as they could be stated as X dB/W at 1M or X dB/2.83V/ at M, or sometimes simply X dB at 1M and that would be worse obviously.



I would agree in general. Room correction systems typically improve bass response from the listening positions around the locations of the mike placed during the calibration process but not necessarily for other positions. Also, one may not prefer the improved response. In fact, some people may not even prefer more accurate (relative to the "live" recording) sound. For example, it is known that some people prefer certain tube sound that has certain inherent harmonics, while others don't.

“You may be right, but Klipsch's specs say: " POWER HANDLING: 125W RMS / 500W Peak The term RMS power is technically wrong, it should be average power, but it has been stated like that so frequently so it has sort of become an acceptable mistake/misnomer.
upload_2015-5-21_13-36-36.png
Since Klipsch did not specify 125W for what duration, we have no idea what they meant by 125W RMS.”

Generally speaking RMS is for continuous use so no duration need be given; it’s understood. I’m unfamiliar with any speaker suggesting duration. In any event this debate doesn’t’ help the OP who’s using a dubious spec to come to a conclusion.

“Pay more attention to the speaker’s efficiency rating, and your wattage rating from your AVR. They rarely provide the efficiency specs, but the sensitivity specs are useful to a point. One has to read this spec carefully too as they could be stated as X dB/W at 1M or X dB/2.83V/ at M, or sometimes simply X dB at 1M and that would be worse obviously.”

Scratch that to read sensitivity specs which for the most part are a direct reflection of a speaker’s efficiency. Regardless of what is actually in the spec you can assume XdB, at 2.83V at 1M, no one does this differently to my knowledge. They might use a different range of frequencies however, but that’s not a big deal. My main point being is that it’s simply more reliable than RMS Wattage of a speaker for the issues that the OP was discussing; his speakers are very efficient, so amp power is less of a concern. Moreover, since he owns a particular speaker we know how the spec is stated so a universal disclaimer isn’t quite necessary.

“I would agree in general. Room correction systems typically improve bass response from the listening positions around the locations of the mike placed during the calibration process but not necessarily for other positions.”

Who said they worked perfectly for every square inch of the room? Also, between Audyssey and YAPO only audyssey does anything to improve the bass. A typical audyssey spread test will cover a whole couch, and likely improve for nearby seating as well. No it won’t work for the back corner. The plastic plant will have to deal with bad sound.

“Also, one may not prefer the improved response.”

Audyssey has Audyssey Flat which takes away Audyssey curves but still keeps sub filtering. Or you don’t have to use it at all. Based off of the OPs issues in particular, I think Audyssey would help. I’m not sure what you stating the obvious does to further this conversation.

“In fact, some people may not even prefer more accurate (relative to the "live" recording) sound. For example, it is known that some people prefer certain tube sound that has certain inherent harmonics, while others don't.”

I think you’re throwing around your scattered knowledge of the subject to show off, and not really helping the OP with his issues. Audyssey provides sound closest to the ‘live’ or engineered material which your room will always change to some degree. Your tube amp analogy is absurd, a quality tube amp shouldn’t change or provide color in reproduction. Of course you can turn Audyssey off. If he runs YAPO, and likes it, I’d wager that he’ll like Audyssey more. I’ve been doing this stuff a long while, and would be surprised if it didn’t.
 
J

JohnT

Audioholic Intern
John,

Congrats on your new system. Let me break down a few things to help you out.

The RMS wattage rating on the speakers is basically meaningless; ignore it. Consider this the first rule of high end audio. All that means is that you can feed the RF-62s 125 watts all day long and not burn out the voice coils, but you almost never feed the speakers that much power; more on that in a minute. Pay more attention to the speaker’s efficiency rating, and your wattage rating from your AVR.

Speaker Efficiency

We have the same floor standing speakers, so I’ll reference those speakers throughout my post. You can make these speakers sing with an alarm clock; and that’s not an exaggeration. With ONE WATT of music they can play over 90dB at one meter. 90 dB is loud. Now, you need more wattage to achieve the same at greater distance, but not much more, and I won’t bore you with the calculus involved. In fact most of the time you are jamming to music at a spirited volume you’re not using more than 20-50 watts, with very brief spikes requiring a little more power which you Yamaha will handle easily. The trouble you can run into is if your volume desired requires more than the wattage your AVR can provide sending a clipped signal which will blow the compression drivers of the speaker’s horn section. Don’t worry about this, since your speakers are very sensitive; they’d probably be uncomfortably loud before your amp ran out of juice.

AVR Wattage

Your Yamaha amp is rated at 80 watts RMS per channel STEREO. That means that any two channels can provide 80 watts comfortably- they can provide spikes of watts higher. This is suitable for your speakers. When in surround you sometimes have more than two channels working, but sometimes just one, so the RMS for all channels is usually 60%, so about 50 watts all channels driven. This is still fine for most material at high volume, especially with your speakers.

Subwoofer

You bought a bargain subwoofer, and the capability of a subwoofer around the $600 range will absolutely blow even two of those cheaper subs out of the water. I’d consider taking it back and doing some shopping elsewhere.

AVR

If you aren’t happy with that Yamaha, I’d consider a similar priced Denon due to Audyssey room correction which is superior to YAPO in all respects. Audyssey EQs the sub for better blending, YAPO doesn’t. All other aspects will be comparable.
I appreciate all this explanation! I've totally decided to keep my AVR. I played with it a bit more last night after work and it really sounds good to me. After thinking more about the power delivered to each speaker and the relatively low volumes I am listening to music and movies, it's not worth the investment at this time to upgrade. I wish I ponied up a bit more and purchased a 7.2, but I'm all out of space in my loft.

I'm really shocked about the subwoofer from what you guys are telling me. I knew having a slightly higher response of 30 Hz would be giving up some smoothness, but it's difficult for me to justify hundreds of additional dollars for 20 Hz.

I imagine my wife would appreciate if I stuck with Klipsch only because everything else wears the same badge. Are there any Klipsch brand subs you recommend? I was looking into the R-115SW instead (http://www.klipsch.com/R-115SW/details) What do you think?
 
J

JohnT

Audioholic Intern
You may be right, but Klipsch's specs say: " POWER HANDLING: 125W RMS / 500W Peak "
The term RMS power is technically wrong, it should be average power, but it has been stated like that so frequently so it has sort of become an acceptable mistake/misnomer.:D.

Since Klipsch did not specify 125W for what duration, we have no idea what they meant by 125W RMS. For amplifiers, manufacturers often use the term "continuous" to mean for X minutes and what X is, would depend on the standards they referred to. So even in those cases where they do say "continuous", we still can't read into it too much. For speakers, it is worse as they tend to be more vague about this more often than not.



They rarely provide the efficiency specs, but the sensitivity specs are useful to a point. One has to read this spec carefully too as they could be stated as X dB/W at 1M or X dB/2.83V/ at M, or sometimes simply X dB at 1M and that would be worse obviously.



I would agree in general. Room correction systems typically improve bass response from the listening positions around the locations of the mike placed during the calibration process but not necessarily for other positions. Also, one may not prefer the improved response. In fact, some people may not even prefer more accurate (relative to the "live" recording) sound. For example, it is known that some people prefer certain tube sound that has certain inherent harmonics, while others don't.
How does room correction improve bass response? Is it usually modifying the built-in EQ settings?
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
I appreciate all this explanation! I've totally decided to keep my AVR. I played with it a bit more last night after work and it really sounds good to me. After thinking more about the power delivered to each speaker and the relatively low volumes I am listening to music and movies, it's not worth the investment at this time to upgrade. I wish I ponied up a bit more and purchased a 7.2, but I'm all out of space in my loft.

I'm really shocked about the subwoofer from what you guys are telling me. I knew having a slightly higher response of 30 Hz would be giving up some smoothness, but it's difficult for me to justify hundreds of additional dollars for 20 Hz.

I imagine my wife would appreciate if I stuck with Klipsch only because everything else wears the same badge. Are there any Klipsch brand subs you recommend? I was looking into the R-115SW instead (http://www.klipsch.com/R-115SW/details) What do you think?
If you want a real subwoofer, then go back and read that list that I provided.

No, there is no Klipsch sub that is going to keep up with those.

You probably won't see the badge anyway.

If you are happy for now, then great. If you decide you want the next level in the future, then you know to start with that sub (or better speakers).
 
J

JohnT

Audioholic Intern
If you go here:
http://www.svsound.com/merlin

You will see your speakers should be crossed over at 60 Hz.

See what that does before you change anything. Directing a little more bass content to the mains may improve the area you are not happy with.
But your sub is the weakest component.
Thanks for the site and video! I played with my AVR a bit more last night, and adjusting the crossover frequency to 60 Hz helped make it sound a bit better. I'm going to try out the room correction this weekend.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
How does room correction improve bass response? Is it usually modifying the built-in EQ settings?
Because the wave lengths of bass signals are so long, it is normal to build up standing waves in a room. Perhaps you have experienced where the bass is WAY to heavy in one place (often against a wall), but not enough in another place. That is what is happening. YPAO and (more so) Audyssey are designed to detect this effect at the locations you put the mic and attempt to correct for it. Not a total fix, but they cetainly make it better.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
How does room correction improve bass response? Is it usually modifying the built-in EQ settings?
I am more familiar with Audyssey and don't know much about YPAO. A good read on Yamaha's YPAO system can be found here:

http://simplehomecinema.com/2014/10/09/yamaha-ypao-and-ypao-r-s-c-advanced-topic/

It seems that the entry level Yamaha AVR such as yours provides a more basic room EQ system that works in the frequency domain only so it probably is a bit like playing with the built-in EQ settings but automated using the information gathered by using the AVR generated tone and an external mike to gather the needed data.

The higher end models has the YPAO - R.S.C. that obviously works in the time domain as well. In that case it does much more than just playing with the built-in EQ settings. You can read about it on their website as well as the article provided in the link above.

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/aventage/rx-a3040_black_u/?mode=model

If you are interested in reading up more about different Room EQ systems, the links in the following thread may save you time searching.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/room-eq-systems-for-avp-avr-users-thread.91544/
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I imagine my wife would appreciate if I stuck with Klipsch only because everything else wears the same badge. Are there any Klipsch brand subs you recommend? I was looking into the R-115SW instead (http://www.klipsch.com/R-115SW/details) What do you think?
Did you show her the pictures of the other subs such as the SVS-SB2000, Rythmik F12?

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/subs/f12se.html

http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/sealed-box/sb-2000

Those sealed subs are nice and small, if that helps. People believe they sound more musical, for music.:D
 
ATLAudio

ATLAudio

Senior Audioholic
I appreciate all this explanation! I've totally decided to keep my AVR. I played with it a bit more last night after work and it really sounds good to me. After thinking more about the power delivered to each speaker and the relatively low volumes I am listening to music and movies, it's not worth the investment at this time to upgrade. I wish I ponied up a bit more and purchased a 7.2, but I'm all out of space in my loft.

I'm really shocked about the subwoofer from what you guys are telling me. I knew having a slightly higher response of 30 Hz would be giving up some smoothness, but it's difficult for me to justify hundreds of additional dollars for 20 Hz.

I imagine my wife would appreciate if I stuck with Klipsch only because everything else wears the same badge. Are there any Klipsch brand subs you recommend? I was looking into the R-115SW instead (http://www.klipsch.com/R-115SW/details) What do you think?

“I appreciate all this explanation! I've totally decided to keep my AVR. I played with it a bit more last night after work and it really sounds good to me. After thinking more about the power delivered to each speaker and the relatively low volumes I am listening to music and movies, it's not worth the investment at this time to upgrade. I wish I ponied up a bit more and purchased a 7.2, but I'm all out of space in my loft.”


Don’t sweat the lack of seven channels. There’s little performance game from five channel home theater.


“I'm really shocked about the subwoofer from what you guys are telling me. I knew having a slightly higher response of 30 Hz would be giving up some smoothness, but it's difficult for me to justify hundreds of additional dollars for 20 Hz.”


For starters I have no idea what you mean by ‘lack of smoothness,’ however, I’ll offer you some more advice along these lines. There is a lot to be gained in the 15-30 hz area, and it shouldn’t be discounted. Also, you’ll have more headroom and impact along the entire spectrum, not just sub 30hz. In short that PSA sub I gave for example can do what your current sub can’t do, and do what it can a lot better.


“I imagine my wife would appreciate if I stuck with Klipsch only because everything else wears the same badge. Are there any Klipsch brand subs you recommend? I was looking into the R-115SW instead. What do you think?”



The second rule to learn today is that it doesn’t matter one iota what brand sub you use with your speakers. Zero, ziltch… Look at my signature, I have a PSA, with my Klipsch speakers, and I have had Klipsch subs in the past. There’s no debate, or discussion; the PSA is a world ahead. If you are considering spending $900 on a Klipsch sub then you’ll get far, far more value from PSA, or any other ‘Internet Direct’ sub brand for the same money. Consider that the third rule to learn today, Internet Direct subs are the only ones worth considering. Retail brands just can’t compete for the same dollar.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I wanted slightly more powerful rear speakers, but the Klipsch Reference surround speakers are ridiculously expensive and then sky rocket in price for additional power. 100w RMS is $400 per speaker, and 150w RMS is $600 per speaker. No thanks!

Receiver: Yamaha RX-V477 (115w/channel) <~ biggest load of crap ever it's more like 80w/channel and probably even less for surround sound

Let me just say that this setup gets VERY LOUD, but I do feel like the noise is lacking just a little bit. I've heard many reviews say they get house shaking noise with 25% load from their receivers. I'm closer to 75% and it's still manageable... nothing is shaking. Plus I heard under-powered receivers are worse for speakers than overpowered. But I'm not sure if I bought too much speaker for my receiver.
After re-reading your first post, I think you may like a Denon AVR that offers the Dynamic EQ feature. I think it may just get you what you are after (improved low bass and surround effects), perhaps even making it passable with your R12SW. The higher end Yamaha AVR should have something similar, but I can't comment on something I have no experience with.
 
ATLAudio

ATLAudio

Senior Audioholic
After re-reading your first post, I think you may like a Denon AVR that offers the Dynamic EQ feature. I think it may just get you what you are after (improved low bass and surround effects), perhaps even making it passable with your R12SW. The higher end Yamaha AVR should have something similar, but I can't comment on something I have no experience with.

I go back and forth with dynamic EQ. I use it at -10 offset for most applications. 0 offset is way too much mustard.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I go back and forth with dynamic EQ. I use it at -10 offset for most applications. 0 offset is way too much mustard.
That's what I tried to say before, that people have different taste;and true to the recording as intended is not necessarily for everyone (it happens to be for me though). I use 0 for movies as recommended by Audyssey. For classical and jazz I could go with 5 or 10, but I am sure some people would prefer 0 all the time.
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
Let me just say that this setup gets VERY LOUD, but I do feel like the noise is lacking just a little bit. I've heard many reviews say they get house shaking noise with 25% load from their receivers. I'm closer to 75% and it's still manageable... nothing is shaking.
JohnT, you've received some good advice here. Honestly, you are in a very small minority of new Audioholics in that you spent way more on your speakers than your AVR. Usually people do the reverse. You done good.

YPAO will indeed give you a good starting point to improve the sound with your system... but understand it is only a starting point. Yes, you can manually change/tweak any settings made by YPAO. In fact, it is highly recommended you do so to suit your own preferences and especially to change the default Large speaker settings back to Small, and adjust your crossovers.

BUT, no amount of room correction will provide the "shaking" you mention. That comes from the sub(s)... period. (The loudest voices or cymbals you can imagine will not shake your room, but a low level rumble of thunder will.) And since the good subs have their own amp, your AVR will be fine. Indeed judicious use of your crossover settings remove the biggest power hogging frequencies from your speakers and send them to the sub(s). This makes more power from your AVR available for your speakers, (if you're still concerned about your power).

So use YPAO, tweak and play with all the settings for the most pleasing result to you. Then when you get ready to shake the room, get a good sub or two.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I've heard many reviews say they get house shaking noise with 25% load from their receivers. I'm closer to 75% and it's still manageable... nothing is shaking.
I think you need to take this statement with a grain of salt.

As others have said, any house shaking comes from the subs. So, if someone has solid subs and has the gain turned up high enough, they will shake their house (frames will vibrate on the walls, dishes may clatter in the cupboards), but in my experience no system should be "house shaking" at 25% volume, because this would put the bass out of balance with the upper frequencies.
Now I am assuming by 25%, you are talking 25% of the range of a standard dB type volume knob.
I think it is more likely that the reviewer is exaggerating, trying to make the review more interesting, just as I will often hear a phrase such as "these speakers played cleanly into ear-bleed levels" - obviously no one's ears are bleeding.

In any case, YPAO and adjusting the sub crossover are free, so that is your first step. If you need/want more bass (and you reasonably would for movies, but might be okay for music), replacing the sub would be your second step. Both of those are obvious changes when we look at the components of your system. Once you have the new sub dialed in, you will have a well-rounded system.
 
ATLAudio

ATLAudio

Senior Audioholic
Also bass response ie 'room shaking' is dependent on how well your room handles bass, especially at your main listening position.
 
J

JohnT

Audioholic Intern
“I appreciate all this explanation! I've totally decided to keep my AVR. I played with it a bit more last night after work and it really sounds good to me. After thinking more about the power delivered to each speaker and the relatively low volumes I am listening to music and movies, it's not worth the investment at this time to upgrade. I wish I ponied up a bit more and purchased a 7.2, but I'm all out of space in my loft.”


Don’t sweat the lack of seven channels. There’s little performance game from five channel home theater.


“I'm really shocked about the subwoofer from what you guys are telling me. I knew having a slightly higher response of 30 Hz would be giving up some smoothness, but it's difficult for me to justify hundreds of additional dollars for 20 Hz.”


For starters I have no idea what you mean by ‘lack of smoothness,’ however, I’ll offer you some more advice along these lines. There is a lot to be gained in the 15-30 hz area, and it shouldn’t be discounted. Also, you’ll have more headroom and impact along the entire spectrum, not just sub 30hz. In short that PSA sub I gave for example can do what your current sub can’t do, and do what it can a lot better.


“I imagine my wife would appreciate if I stuck with Klipsch only because everything else wears the same badge. Are there any Klipsch brand subs you recommend? I was looking into the R-115SW instead. What do you think?”



The second rule to learn today is that it doesn’t matter one iota what brand sub you use with your speakers. Zero, ziltch… Look at my signature, I have a PSA, with my Klipsch speakers, and I have had Klipsch subs in the past. There’s no debate, or discussion; the PSA is a world ahead. If you are considering spending $900 on a Klipsch sub then you’ll get far, far more value from PSA, or any other ‘Internet Direct’ sub brand for the same money. Consider that the third rule to learn today, Internet Direct subs are the only ones worth considering. Retail brands just can’t compete for the same dollar.
I like these rules. I think we are a bit more concerned with resale value and advertising my entire setup as a "set" instead of making it look piecemeal type of thing. But I've decided these are going to be very, very, very long term speakers. So I've been paying a lot of attention to the advice you guys have been providing about everything.

It sounds like my speakers are fine. My AVR will get the job done, but there is room for improvement in 5 or so years. My subwoofer is absolute junk... I'd get better bass hooking my AVR up to pots and pans :) And finally, I need to get over Klipsch subwoofers... I'm going to post more on this shortly...
 
J

JohnT

Audioholic Intern
JohnT, you've received some good advice here. Honestly, you are in a very small minority of new Audioholics in that you spent way more on your speakers than your AVR. Usually people do the reverse. You done good.
Finally did something right! :)

YPAO will indeed give you a good starting point to improve the sound with your system... but understand it is only a starting point. Yes, you can manually change/tweak any settings made by YPAO. In fact, it is highly recommended you do so to suit your own preferences and especially to change the default Large speaker settings back to Small, and adjust your crossovers.

BUT, no amount of room correction will provide the "shaking" you mention. That comes from the sub(s)... period. (The loudest voices or cymbals you can imagine will not shake your room, but a low level rumble of thunder will.) And since the good subs have their own amp, your AVR will be fine. Indeed judicious use of your crossover settings remove the biggest power hogging frequencies from your speakers and send them to the sub(s). This makes more power from your AVR available for your speakers, (if you're still concerned about your power).

So use YPAO, tweak and play with all the settings for the most pleasing result to you. Then when you get ready to shake the room, get a good sub or two.
You know... I'm beginning to think that it's not really the speakers or AVR, but it's actually how close they are to each other. I have the floorstanding speakers about 6 feet apart. That's really the best I can do with the way the loft is situated. I'll try my luck with YPAO, but at the end of the day I should just stop being a panzy. I cranked up the receiver to -20 dB and everything sounded great. I have no reason to believe it won't sound as good at higher volumes. I know I will eventually run into distortion, but so far so good.
 
J

JohnT

Audioholic Intern
Okay! OKAY! It's gone. My r-12SW is GONE. Returned. Sheesh talk about just in time. It was my 29th day since purchase. I can't thank you guys enough for helping me avoid that tragic mistake... a super cheapo sub in a fancy dress. Those curves. Her cheap rumble. The copper colored accents... I miss her. But I had to let her go.

I've spent a lot of time looking into a lot of reviews and information about subs and internet direct companies. I spent a couple hours today driving from store to store, looking for subs.

I had to go pretty far, but a "local" Best Buy store had two SVS subs on display in the Magnolia room. I scoped out the SB13-Ultra. HOLY ****! That sealed cabinet. The rumble of good bass. It meshed so well with the music. I could not believe it. I also tried the SB-2000 and wasn't very impressed with it. It was VERY boomy at the store. But I can't tell anything at the store. I tried asking about their crossover frequency and I didn't hear the guy. They were using multiple AVRs. I just let it go.

He tried selling me on a Martin Logan sealed sub. That sounded like a train wreck to me by comparison. SVS is miles ahead. It's amazing how much passion produces better results than brand names and profit margins.

I also found a store that carried the r-115SW. The 15 inch, 800w peak monster from Klipsch. No thanks. The noise was so muffled. Better than my r-12SW, but not by a large margin. Not enough for $700 more. Some proprietary port configuration. They can keep the stupid patent. I would have been all in if it was $400. But it isn't. It's $900. Klipsch subs are dead to me.

Now I'm without a subwoofer and courting many subwoofers from online retailers. Secretly I hate that I have to spend close to a thousand dollars on this, but again, I can't thank you guys enough for standing your ground and showing me the light.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
The SB13U is very nice but if you are not prepared to pay that much then the F12SE should be able to do the job for you. Or if you want to conserve cash, go with the F12 that offers identical SQ, just no piano black finish. You do have to pay more for that more musical bass, but you may as well bite the bullet and do it right the first time.
 
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