Has anybody measured the resolution of vinyl records?

Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
The wonder is that such a mechanical system vibrating in a plastic groove sounds as marvelous as it does. That is where reasoned discussion should end.
Well said. LPs are an under-appreciated miracle of 20th century technology. That LPs sound good enough to make a worthwhile comparison with Redbook CDs is a sufficient achievement.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
The functional high frequency limit to any recording from the vinyl days was lower than 20 kHz, perhaps as low as 15 kHz. Studio microphones didn't go higher.

No recorded signal existed above that. Any sounds that did exist at those frequencies would be unwanted noise.
Everything you said I agree with. I read that 70KHz was achieved in a lab just to see how high they could push the limit. All I remember is teh 70KHz but I can't remember what output level was achieved. Useless? Yeah.. Kinda cool? Definately. :)
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Well said. LPs are an under-appreciated miracle of 20th century technology. That LPs sound good enough to make a worthwhile comparison with Redbook CDs is a sufficient achievement.
Oh I dunno.. I appreciate my vinyl very much :)
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
This raises another issue.

The audiophools with their $30,000 turntables cite the frequency response of cartridges going to 45 KHz as one reason for their investment.

Well first that is beyond human hearing.

The next issue, is that unless the LP is direct cut, or made form a very high resolution digital master then the LP was cut from a tape. Well tape machines struggle to get to 20 KHz.

I love my turntables and my legacy record collection. I don't pretend it is state of the art, because it is not, and never will or can be again. The wonder is that such a mechanical system vibrating in a plastic groove sounds as marvelous as it does. That is where reasoned discussion should end.

The daftest release of all is issuing the sound track of Interstellar on LP. There is just no way that sound track can be cut to LP and retain even a fraction of its impact.

That really is a high water mark of daft!
I was watching some videos from Axpona last weekend and there's a guy making turntables with a magnetic bearing (his word, not mine) and a 35 pound platter. The video was recorded by Michael Fremer, who is the editor of Stereophile Magazine and Analog Planet. He was commenting that he doesn't care if an LP is made from a CD, he likes the sound. Says it may be due to additive distortions, but he doesn't care why- he just likes it. It was held in Chicago and if I had gone, I think you would have heard me in Minnesota.

Your comments about your turntables and collection are where I am. I don't have delusions of them being perfect and I have no intention of trying to make others believe that- vinyl wears, dirt is embedded and shoved around, detail is lost. I'm just enjoying hearing what I put aside for so long and with the improvements to my system, the sound is better than ever.

How would Interstellar play on most of the recently offered turntables if the cannon on Telarc's 1812 was able to launch tonearms out of the groove?
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I was watching some videos from Axpona last weekend and there's a guy making turntables with a magnetic bearing (his word, not mine) and a 35 pound platter. The video was recorded by Michael Fremer, who is the editor of Stereophile Magazine and Analog Planet. He was commenting that he doesn't care if an LP is made from a CD, he likes the sound. Says it may be due to additive distortions, but he doesn't care why- he just likes it…
That guy gets a face palm. Make that a double.
 
Speedskater

Speedskater

Audioholic General
Well said. LPs are an under-appreciated miracle of 20th century technology. That LPs sound good enough to make a worthwhile comparison with Redbook CDs is a sufficient achievement.
Well no, that's incorrect!
LP's aren't in the same league as CD's with regards to quality & accuracy.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Well no, that's incorrect!
LP's aren't in the same league as CD's with regards to quality & accuracy.
Actually they are close, and that is the astonishing part.

I have some very well preserved LPs and excellent vintage turntables. I would bet on a lot of program you would think you were listening to a CD.

If I played you a dbx encoded LP you would be very hard pressed to tell, in fact you probably would not.

This is not a plug for more vinyl, but a tribute to the engineers who got such amazing results from such an unlikely system.
 
Speedskater

Speedskater

Audioholic General
I have some very well preserved LPs and excellent vintage turntables. I would bet on a lot of program you would think you were listening to a CD.
I recall back in the mid-1980's, three LP's that you could call CD quality.

If I played you a dbx encoded LP you would be very hard pressed to tell, in fact you probably would not.
Maybe now some 30 years later OK. But way back then, not a chance.

This is not a plug for more vinyl, but a tribute to the engineers who got such amazing results from such an unlikely system.
How true.
It was then and still is now a very challenging engineering problem.

Actually they are close, and that is the astonishing part.
Once again with regard to technical quality & accuracy, it's not even close.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Actually they are close, and that is the astonishing part.

I have some very well preserved LPs and excellent vintage turntables. I would bet on a lot of program you would think you were listening to a CD.

...
Perhaps that demonstrates how good our hearing really is. ;) And perhaps why there is no real need for higher res recordings.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Perhaps that demonstrates how good our hearing really is. ;) And perhaps why there is no real need for higher res recordings.
No, it demonstrates that for a lot of music, mostly acoustic instruments and voices, that LPs are have sufficient resolution to sound very good. For sounds with sub-40Hz bass, not so much. We don't need higher resolution recordings, which I'm interpreting to mean higher sampling rates, but that has nothing to do with the reproductive capabilities of LPs. It just means that sounds above about 20KHz are irrelevant to music and most natural sounds. Deep word depth, like 24 bits, is better for recording, because they help the engineer avoid accidental overload. For playback it is very tough to argue that 16 bits aren't enough, but I'm still not following your logic at all.

Actually, I have to confess I think I do understand what you're trying to say. You're one of those double-blind tests prove everything, almost all electronics sound alike people, and the notion that LPs, which measure so much worse, sound almost as good as 44.1/16 digital fits your nice little world that humans really can't tell sources or electronics apart reliably.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
That would be my stance do. Accuracy going past the point of being audible becomes nothing but a lab exercise at best.
 
George Graves

George Graves

Audiophyte
I don't know anything about vinyl but I find this an interesting topic of conversation that comes up sometimes. I've googled for the answer but can't find anything quantitative about it.

This should be a fairly straightforward experiment to run. Get multiple presses of a record, put them on a turntable, and record them using high resolution/high frequency recording hardware. Compare the recordings somehow. (The comparison could be a little complicated and mathematical but still seems very doable to me.)

To control for the recording hardware, you could record the same song being played multiple times from the same digital source.

The reason you can't find anything quantitative about the bandwidth of vinyl is because there is no hard and fast answer. There are a number of things that we can say about the overall limits for most vinyl records, but every record company did things a bit differently and used different equipment with different capabilities. First of all, all LPs made in the USA, Western Europe and Japan since the late 1950s conform to the RIAA (Recording Industry Academy of America) equalization curve. Without getting too technical here, basically in order to keep low frequencies from causing needle (stylus) excursions so big that they break through the groove walls into the adjacent groove, on recording, low frequency signals are attenuated by a certain amount following a fixed, standardized set of parameters. On the top end, high frequencies are boosted, again, using a fixed, standardized set of parameters. This is done for two reasons. First of all, high frequencies don't contain as much energy as lower frequencies, so the waveforms being cut into the record are much smaller, sometimes so small, that if they weren't boosted, the playback stylus couldn't resolve them al all. Secondly, the low level of the highs are often quieter than the noise of the record vinyl itself. By boosting them on recording, and attenuating them by an exact reciprocal filter on playback, their level is returned to what it was naturally. A side benefit being that when you attenuate the boosted highs, you also attenuate any high frequency record noise that might be inherent in the vinyl. The round trip frequency response of the RIAA equalization curve is from 30 Hz to 20 KHz. Does that mean that this is frequency response that is on all LPs? It does not.

In the beginning, the RIAA stipulated that un order for an LP to be considered High-Fidelity, it must have a frequency range of at least from 50 Hz on the bottom end, to 15 KHz on the top end. Most LP mastering equipment, especially since the advent of stereo, exceeds that by quite a margin. As was shown in the JVC Q4 "quadraphonic" 4-channel surround recordings of the late 1970's it is possible to encode information on an LP that extends well above 50 KHz! That product was short lived, however, because even though special stylus shapes (the so called Shibata stylus, for instance) as well as new vinyl formulations were devised to play back this ultra-high frequency material, it was found that the ultra-high frequency material (containing the information for the two rear channels) wore away rather quickly. While most records could have frequency responses that went below 30 Hz and above 15KHz, It doesn't mean that the material recorded on them had that wide of bandwidth.

The reason has to do with the fact that almost all LPs were mastered using magnetic tape. The tape captured the performance and then it was edited on tape and then the master was transferred to a copy which was used to actually "cut" the LP. The problem with Magnetic tape was maintenance. While the tape recorders of the day could, theoretically, capture and playback frequencies up to 20 KHz, the amount of work it would take a technician to get the tape recorder to maintain that frequency response was not economically practical. So most recording studios maintained their mastering machines only to 15 KHz. That's not to say that these recorders "brick-walled" at 15 KHz, but they were only "flat" to that frequency, after which the frequency response rolled-off rather rapidly. Also, the more tracks that an analog tape recorder had, the more difficult it was to keep all the tracks flat to 15 Khz dues to slight misalignment that occurs between each track's head gap.

On the low end, analog magnetic tape suffers from a technical problem called head fringing. This occurs generally below 30 Hz and is caused because of the relationship between the width of the head gap vs the wavelength of the ultra low frequency signal being recorded. So, most tape decks had little response below 30 Hz.

You can pretty much be guaranteed that any undamaged/un-worn vinyl record will have a flat frequency response (assuming proper RIAA equalization on playback) of from at least 50 Hz to 15 KHz, and often they will do a bit better.

I hope this answers some of your questions.
 
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