If an 88db speaker can reach thx level at less 70watts rms why does it say recommended 300rms

P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I appreciate you checking yes the back of my 6.2 speaker says 225watts rms 4-8ohm 92db so I get it doesnt take much to drive it I was just trying to understand why it wants 225watts if its so efficient that I would need a seperate amp instead of a top of the line receiver to be able to produce thx 105db if the receiver could produce 100watts a channel acd I get I'll never get 225watts out of a denon 4520ci acd but why would someone with such an efficient speaker need more watts thats what I wanted to know when I blew a tweeter and klipsch warrantied me a new one they told me it was the fault of my receiver not being powerful enough and that I should be using a 200watt rms amp at least
You should read this thread http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/volume-display-0db-reference-level-how-is-it-all-related.68081/#post-1081012 first and then ask questions if still feel the need to.

If your room is 12X12 (missing one dimension?) and you sit 10 ft from the speakers, you are getting a minimum of almost 84 dB with only 1 watt even without room gain. Chances are you will have some room gain so you are most likely getting 86 to 88 dB with 1 watt. Without knowing which AVR you have, it is hard to say what volume of -20 means. If you have a Denon or Marantz with Audyssey XT, then your -20 could possible mean your amp is only pushing 0.1 to 0.5W average to your L/R speakers. That means even a 100 WPC AVR will get you 20 to 27 dB of headroom for peaks and you will have no problem hitting THX reference level.

Base on the information you provided, a 200 or 400W amp won't "open" up your speakers. If you want things open up, you have to change your speakers, doing something about the room, or both. More often than not, people look to electronics for answers, when they should be looking to upgrade speakers and/or doing something about their rooms. A square room is also a factor, not a good one.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
In other words we all just need 5 or 7 of these (they have 8!).

http://www.bgmicro.com/1-watt-audio-amp-board.aspx

No idea what you referred to. Base on the info the OP provided, a 200W amp won't help him, a 100W amp will be fine for him but definitely not 1W amps. Just because his average power requirement is less than 1WPC does not mean the dynamic and peak requirements won't approach 100W or even more for multiple reasons. From one of your previous post, I am sure you know some of those reasons and I highly doubt we are disagreeing.

Someone who owns different speakers, in a larger room, and/or listen at higher spl can easily benefit from much more power.
 
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mhdaniels31

mhdaniels31

Audioholic Intern
No idea what you referred to. Base on the info the OP provided, a 200W amp won't help him, a 100W amp will be fine for him but definitely not 1W amps. Just because his average power requirement is less than 1WPC does not mean the dynamic and peak requirements won't approach 100W or even more for multiple reasons. From one of your previous post, I am sure you know some of those reasons and I highly doubt we are disagreeing.

Someone who owns different speakers, in a larger room, and/or listen at higher spl can easily benefit from much more power.
alright I'm back let me just run this by you I realize that I could've done better with my money on my speakers but at the time I loved the high grade piano rosewood finish and these are large towers there 2 61/2 with 1inch aluminum tweeter and all the center and bookshelf use pretty high grade 51/4 and they're pretty heavy build quality and crossovers are high grade as well there weak point is the aluminum tweeter that is really bright would be the right term i think if I could do it again I would have focused more on the semblance of mid and tweeter more so I thought xt32 would help especialy with my velodyne 18inch subwoofer which I never can turn up because of bass bloat I'm using denon 3312ci with xt right now and I really like audessy the best for me I dont have another $3500 to drop on new speakers till xmas time and dont plan on putting ceiling speakers for atmos in anytime soon so I thought the 4520ci would be my best solution to try to tame the highs and also prepare me for future speaker upgrade but I wasnt sure if purchasing the 4520ci would be a mistake because of 4k I live in apt. and use panny 60st50 for video but plan on buying 75inch samsung or sony after see the new sonys with full backlight on all 75inch models so before I bought the samsung 4k wanted to see the reviews on the new sony 75inchers with full led backlight and may just buy the sony 1080p w series if it reviews well so then dont have to worry about hdmi 2.0 hdcp 2.2 sorry strayed off topic the next speakers I was looking at were the aperion versus grand the large tower and center and bookshelfs for suround so here is were we get back to power ratings the aperion are 6ohms with 92db and 300watt rms which once again apeion when i spoke to them said that using a 200watt per channel multi channel amp would be great but which relates to about 250watts a channel at 6ohm all channels driven with a emotiva xpa-5 gen2 now where do all these watts come into play compared to the amp in the 4520ci and yes like i said before i know there is a diffrence but if I can get to really high volume levels and pretty large powersupply and capacitors in the 4520ci once xt32 is enabled if i used an external amp from the pre out and a/b it with the 4520ci amps would I hear a diffrence and if most likely i wouldnt why do people buy these large power amps if a receiver can do the same thing especialy ones like the 4520ci which is just like the marantz 8801pre pro but with free amps is there realy a benefit to having all that juice in the tank if you arent using a huge room that requires large amounts of power for spl
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
We've hashed this out, in, over, under, sideways and down and we've all pretty much said the same thing.

What answer do you want to hear?

There's an old saying that often applies: "We can explain it to you, but we can't understand it for you."
 
mhdaniels31

mhdaniels31

Audioholic Intern
We've hashed this out, in, over, under, sideways and down and we've all pretty much said the same thing.

What answer do you want to hear?

There's an old saying that often applies: "We can explain it to you, but we can't understand it for you."
what I want to know is do you personaly believe you would hear a difference is there scientific proof to back it up or is it just peoples opinions and im not trying to be sarcastic this is a large amount of money for me and dont want to make the same mistakes again by buying based on looks and numbers the audioholics video review for my speakers says there great the reality is there bright I'm pretty smart and undestand the science behind speakers and sound but sounding good is alot different then the science of numbers if your just getting frustrated talking to me dont worry about I wont think your rude for not responding thanks
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Okay, Mark probably know I am audioholic enough to answer some of your questions hopefully more clearly this time.

Your Veritas - The graphs do show some elevated output from 8 Khz and up but if you run Audyssey correctly you probably won't feel the brightness. Other than that those Veritas should be as transparent as most speakers in that price range. If you prefer something more mellow you may try the KEF R series, I think the R500 is in the same price bracket as your Veritas.

Bass bloat - That's a tough one due to your room's geometry, X32 is good but can't do the impossible. You also mentioned the room is 12X12 (feet?) but how high? I think the room may be too small for your 18" Velo, you may want to chat with SVS or PSA and get their recommendations on a sub more suitable to your room and your taste.

4520/8801 - I own a 8801 and I agree the 4520 is a much better deal and more intelligent choice. If you can get one brand new for 1K it really is a no brainer.

Your power requirements - Again, I am quite sure with your volume set at -20 your amp won't be outputting any more than 0.5W per channel (L/R only) on average. Dynamic peaks will swing it to say 8W frequently and probably 50 to 60W occasionally if you listen to classical music. As you said yourself, how can a 200W amp help if you won't come close to calling for that kind of output.

Why people need 200W? - Many people do and many needs much more such as 1,000W or even more. There are many reasons, such as the following:

1) Speakers with low sensitivity, such as 83 dB/1W/1M vs the Veritas that seems to be rated 93.5 dB/1W/1M. Every 3dB difference would equate to double the power, so if you need 100W, the person who owns speakers with 83 dB sensitivity would need a little over 1,000W, everything else being equal.

2) Speakers with low nominal impedance such as 6 ohms and below with dips to even lower - You already know the math on this.

3) They have larger rooms and sit further away - For every doubling in distance, you lose 6 dB. Now there is room gain to offset that 6 dB loss but a larger room will have less room gain than a smaller room.

4) They listen at much louder spl than you - I think you are probably used to and happy with 75 dB average (me too), with peaks to say 85 to 100 dB depending on the media content. Those guys who need huge power amps such as the EMO XPR monoblocks probably listen to average spl of 85 dB regularly.

5) More power is better whether you need it or not, so even for people like me who could easily get away with 50W amps, I won't go for anything less than 200W except for the surround channels that I am fine with my 140WPC power amp; and I suspect a lot of people prefer to have more power on hand regardless of their real needs.

Again, there are many reasons and they don't have to be rational for audiophiles or even just normal audioholics like us, YMMV.:D
 
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Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
alright I'm back let me just run this by you I realize that I could've done better with my money on my speakers but at the time I loved the high grade piano rosewood finish and these are large towers there 2 61/2 with 1inch aluminum tweeter and all the center and bookshelf use pretty high grade 51/4 and they're pretty heavy build quality and crossovers are high grade as well there weak point is the aluminum tweeter that is really bright would be the right term i think if I could do it again I would have focused more on the semblance of mid and tweeter more so I thought xt32 would help especialy with my velodyne 18inch subwoofer which I never can turn up because of bass bloat I'm using denon 3312ci with xt right now and I really like audessy the best for me I dont have another $3500 to drop on new speakers till xmas time and dont plan on putting ceiling speakers for atmos in anytime soon so I thought the 4520ci would be my best solution to try to tame the highs and also prepare me for future speaker upgrade but I wasnt sure if purchasing the 4520ci would be a mistake because of 4k I live in apt. and use panny 60st50 for video but plan on buying 75inch samsung or sony after see the new sonys with full backlight on all 75inch models so before I bought the samsung 4k wanted to see the reviews on the new sony 75inchers with full led backlight and may just buy the sony 1080p w series if it reviews well so then dont have to worry about hdmi 2.0 hdcp 2.2 sorry strayed off topic the next speakers I was looking at were the aperion versus grand the large tower and center and bookshelfs for suround so here is were we get back to power ratings the aperion are 6ohms with 92db and 300watt rms which once again apeion when i spoke to them said that using a 200watt per channel multi channel amp would be great but which relates to about 250watts a channel at 6ohm all channels driven with a emotiva xpa-5 gen2 now where do all these watts come into play compared to the amp in the 4520ci and yes like i said before i know there is a diffrence but if I can get to really high volume levels and pretty large powersupply and capacitors in the 4520ci once xt32 is enabled if i used an external amp from the pre out and a/b it with the 4520ci amps would I hear a diffrence and if most likely i wouldnt why do people buy these large power amps if a receiver can do the same thing especialy ones like the 4520ci which is just like the marantz 8801pre pro but with free amps is there realy a benefit to having all that juice in the tank if you arent using a huge room that requires large amounts of power for spl
mhdaniels31 – I know there is a question or two buried somewhere in that post, but I can't understand what you wrote. I'm impressed that Peng actually waded through it all.

Punctuation and capitalization will help with this. So will writing complete sentences. Your post is such a long run-on sentence, if you broke it up into several complete sentences, others might read it and actually understand what you're asking.

I don't often get all Grammar Police on people, but this post is a bit much. There are others I've seen recently that are the same. I get that smart phones encourage people to ignore writing sentences that look like sentences. But if you have a real question, make a real effort at being understandable.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
what I want to know is do you personaly believe you would hear a difference is there scientific proof to back it up or is it just peoples opinions and im not trying to be sarcastic this is a large amount of money for me and dont want to make the same mistakes again by buying based on looks and numbers the audioholics video review for my speakers says there great the reality is there bright I'm pretty smart and undestand the science behind speakers and sound but sounding good is alot different then the science of numbers if your just getting frustrated talking to me dont worry about I wont think your rude for not responding thanks
Actually, people thinking I'm rude never really bothered me. People who don't listen to the answers being given do.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Actually, people thinking I'm rude never really bothered me. People who don't listen to the answers being given do.
Notice how I cleverly sidestepped how the OP didn't notice your answer? :D
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Notice how I cleverly sidestepped how the OP didn't notice your answer? :D
Which one? I try to keep the verbiage to a minimum to keep it as simple as possible but, still, I don't think he understood any of them, or simply weren't what he wanted to hear. Apparently, he thinks his own personal situation is the only ones that manufacturers are supposed to design for.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I still have my old Veritas 2.3i and they are not bright at all. I don't think the older Connosseur C9 and RC70 towers were bright either, wonder what happened after the acquisition.
 

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